AI Isn’t the Enemy. Your Anxiety Is.

Zhou Fang, founder of Intersectional Group, spent this year testing whether abundance thinking actually holds up against a job market that feels like scarcity. She still gets asked to prove it.

My biggest take away: “It’s not that there’s not enough. It’s that the system is built to make it look that way.”

Zhou’s core reframe — scarcity isn’t a market condition, it’s a manufactured narrative that keeps people competing instead of comparing notes. For a people leader, this cuts close to home: it’s a description of how a lot of internal cultures actually run (hoarded headcount, hoarded information, manufactured urgency), even though Zhou is talking about job seekers, not orgs. Worth noting on air that this is really a description of a bad internal culture wearing a “job market” costume.

About Zhou Fang

Zhou Fang teaches abundance mindset and intersectionality to leaders navigating change. She's watched company after company treat AI layoffs as a plan when they were really a guess, and she has a clear read on what leaders should be doing instead.

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TRANSCRIPT:

I don’t know about you, but I am feeling very anxious. And I think a lot of us have been feeling

that way for a long time. And AI is here to dial it up for us. And it feels with this whole looking

for what the future is going to hold. The current story in our society is one of scarcity.

There is not enough. Typically here we talk about not enough jobs.

But today I have on the program with us an abundance expert.

Jo Fang is the founder of Intersectional Group, an intersectionality practitioner and abundance

mindset teacher. She helps leaders. to go through change using the abundance mindset and

intersectionality as a way, as a lens for teaching leadership. And I am so excited to have her on

Great Mondays Radio. Thanks for coming on the show. Thank you, Josh, for having me.

I’m so excited to be here as well. So I want to understand you have this kind of perspective and it

really spoke to me about how we live in a society that prioritizes individuality and the system

makes us think about scarcity. So I want to start at the very basics of just talk to me about

scarcity mindset versus abundance mindset with level set. And then we’ll move on to applying it

like what’s happening now.

Yeah, very good question. Let’s just go right into it.

Thank you, Josh. I think scarcity mindset, at least from my perspective, is this notion that there

is not enough. It feels like our whole world is functioning on this idea that there is not enough

for everyone. Therefore, we have to work really, really hard to get enough for ourselves.

And as a result, we compete very hard, right? Like if I know this insider tip,

I’m going to hold that insider tip. I’m not going to share with you. For example, like say today’s

job market, right? For example, if I... looking for jobs and I come across opportunities.

Of course, I’m not going to share. I’m going to go through them by myself. However, if we think the

other way, abundance mindset, what if I share my resources with another job seeker,

right? If we both share resources, then we actually have double the opportunities as we apply for

jobs. So I look, I found five jobs that are opening now.

And Josh, you found five. Together we have 10. So if we all go for it, we double our opportunities.

So that’s kind of like a pretty simplified, maybe version of how we look at scarcity and abundance.

Scarcity is always think there is not enough for everyone. And then we fight for resources and we

hoard resources and still wanting more. And abundance is knowing, believing there is enough for

everyone, especially if we share our resources, share our information and believe if we work

together, there is collective abundance.

I mean, it feels the narrative that is out in the world right now amongst the working population is

there is not enough jobs. And I’ve done a bunch of conversations and research with folks who are

saying it is harder and harder to find work. And it feels like this rule of scarcity is very

present and very true. Can you can you disprove that narrative?

I know that’s a big bar, but that’s the first thing that I think someone would ask or like, OK,

great idea, Joe. You know, love love the vision of it. But I still I still applied to 50 jobs and

haven’t heard back. I think that’s valid. And that’s really hard. That’s a real life challenge

there. And I think we are not alone in this situation. You know, we are not isolated in this

challenge. So I think I hope. just that idea alone like we’re not alone going through this crisis

hopefully that can pre provide some comfort to people that’s for one and two you know after we go

through all these applications and to think huh why why do i keep hitting the wall we can take a

pause maybe to sit with the anxiety right like am i applying jobs because i’m very anxious so i’m

just going to apply as a coping mechanism or I can actually slow down,

allow myself to breathe, right? Just to take a pause and to think about what I have been doing and

what are the other resources I might not have tapped into. Like, for example,

have I asked advice from my colleagues, even from previous colleagues?

Have I tapped into my community as a professional network, right? Have I looked,

have I asked my mentor, for example? for advice or even just,

you know, go to community events just to seek support, things like that. And if things are really

like. being very shaky or like oh i’m running off money then can we have that honest conversation

with our family because we don’t have to do it alone you know some people may say i have to provide

for my family i have to send my kids to college then bring them in get them involved have a

conversation with them and brainstorm because i think people may be surprised how much our family

and our chosen family times, the advice they may provide to us could really lead to some very

pleasant surprises. So I know the situation right now is really hard.

And I invite folks to be comfortable with the discomfort, which is really hard to do.

I understand that. Easy to say. Yeah, very easy to say. And I have to go through that,

you know, myself as well on a daily basis is, you know, we’re very anxious.

and we’re aware of the situation, can we allow ourselves just a few minutes a day just to think

about why am I doing this? And then have a conversation with people who you trust,

who you are very close to, and then perhaps we can figure it out all together. And don’t be afraid

of going to community because the thing is, as humans, we want to help.

Like a lot of people don’t ask for help because people say, oh, I don’t want to burden people. I

don’t want to trouble them. Or it’s like a sign of weakness, at least in the West.

Right. It feels like I have conversations. One of my good friends is, you know,

he’s like, I might have to go to my parents to ask for some money. And that’s not ideal.

But there’s the amount of. You could just feel the energy around that of like, it means I’m a

failure. And, and. I think as Americans,

you know, we have this story about being the, you know, especially let’s say for,

you know, if it was like men in a marriage, right? Like there’s the story about like being the

provider story about, you know, individuality, pull yourself up by your bootstraps.

And that has never been true. Right. But now it.

That frame is failing us. It is preventing us from looking at this moment in a new way,

perhaps.

Absolutely. I definitely think, you know, yes, the job market is hard.

At the same time, we are not. alone we’re not stranded in the desert we actually we are surrounded

by communities at all times if we look for it if we participate right people wanting to help and

there is generosity in our like if we’re talking about Portland,

there’s so much generosity in this community, in the local, you know, atmosphere here.

So I really encourage people when you feel like you are desperate or keep hitting a wall,

just slow down and turn around. We can always,

you know, redirect this conversation or this path to a different angle or a different...

different different fork you know how should we so um i think the other part of the the the the

moment that we’re in that is driving this anxiety it’s kind of a 2x anxiety of like i might get

fired i might not be able to find another job but there’s also the the the change That is a,

that is happening. We’re about to change and about to, yeah, the change that’s about to happen.

When we think about AI as a, let’s just use it as a proxy for change.

We don’t, we have, we can see, we can’t, we have less of a clear view of what is coming than ever

before because the future is coming so quickly. Let’s call it.

How do we or how should, if we are going to practice an abundance mindset,

how should we think about the uncertainty that technology,

AI, is providing or is causing right now?

Yeah, that’s such a good question and hard one. I remember when I was watching Black Mirror,

the level of anxiety. I was like, we are so screwed. Listener,

do not. If you have not seen that and are not in a good mental place about it,

it’s a fantastic show. But oh my gosh, it is so incisive.

So please continue. Yes, Black Mirror. It’s amazing. Don’t watch it.

And the thing is, you know, we can’t avoid it.

And whether or not you believe Black Mirror is really a prophet or is it like a future teller?

Yeah. I do believe, you know, AI is here. AI is everywhere.

And I also want to perhaps most importantly remind myself and folks who are listening or feel also

the anxiety around AI is that AI is not necessarily here to replace us.

Like it’s not necessarily our enemy. It’s a creation.

It is created to do something with human.

i really like right now as you said josh it’s very foggy it’s very hard to see clearly where we are

going at the same time we are not helpless we are we are humans and still sorry about the dog and

we are driving we are still driving the traffic right so it really is up to us you know how are we

gonna direct these kind of AI.

the next generation of AI in our life, I think. And to be a little bit more specific is that

instead of seeing AI as the other, as the opponent, we can perhaps see AI as a member of our

community, as the society, and AI as a partner,

perhaps, in our life. And I know that’s really hard to hear. I will perhaps give an example.

I recently interviewed someone who was leading an AI forward company and they use AI to create or

to help creators with their content. And I asked them, you know,

like, how do you see the relationship between AI and human race? And their response was very

interesting. They said,

fictions, I love novels, and I will read certain authors’ books over and over.

But if I imagine if there was an AI agent that can create the same kind of genre and content over

and over, would I want to read it? and my immediate response is no i do not want to read that i do

not want ai to be the author i want humans to be the author but i want ai to be the tool to assist

human to create to create art to help with technology to help with um for example climate which

another which is another paradox obviously that we’re still figuring out but ai does not have to be

the uh, you know, definitive enemy to the human species.

And I will also add, you know, like looking at the long history of humanity, we have always

prevailed. We’ve gone through so many revolutions, so many changes,

and sometimes are like very nerve wracking ones, right? Like in the past, people maybe only just 40

or some years ago, people were like, oh, computer is going to replace humans. And that still hasn’t

happened. Yeah. We are still everywhere. And people can say, oh, how do you know this time?

I don’t know, of course. But the thing is, I think we as humans, we have a tendency to preserve

what we have. We have a tendency to. To want to keep this.

We have certainty is very comforting.

And what is. as 100% more knowable than what could be.

And to me, there is this, or what I understand is there’s a biological instinct to be safe.

And it doesn’t mean the future is less safe. It just means that it’s different, but we don’t know

that. And that is why we have this constant battle with technology specifically,

right? So when we think about... resistance to uh the gutenberg press in the 1400s the resistance

to the um the the story of the luddites breaking into factories and and breaking machines because

it was taking and weaver’s jobs the the resistance we have to the um electricity or horseless

carriage or the computer and then the spreadsheet. These are all moments that have changed society

in a way that is in unknown ways, which is why,

to different extents, there are kind of revolts or resistance to these moments.

And it’s expected. And so that’s my, that’s when I, when you’re talking about,

think about it as a member, think about AI as a member of society. I think that there’s,

I don’t know if I agree with the framing exactly, but the lens you’re looking through is correct,

which is, it is not something that is enacting, it shouldn’t be seen as something enacting on us,

but can be a tool that we can.

Hand use. Yeah, I definitely think it’s a tool. Like it’s not a replacement.

And I think in the process, some jobs will be replaced by AI.

And that’s the reality. And for folks who are losing jobs because of that,

I think right now the situation is really, really hard. At the same time, I really would advocate.

And I’m not saying this as like, oh, you don’t know nothing, right? are not in this it’s easy for

you to say um and i’m saying that because i believe it i believe that people who are going through

it have the opportunity to see this like oh maybe it’s time for me to learn something new right if

my current job is being taken away by ai or like automation then what is already in my toolbox that

is replay irreplaceable at least for now I am going to look into my vault,

into my toolbox and see what are the other skills that can help me get through this.

And chances are we probably do have those skills already. So for folks who lost jobs because of

like AI, like say AI took away my job. One, I’m not saying that is right because a lot of employers

and businesses, they don’t think through the process. They just think. Let’s try it and see how it

works. Yeah, exactly. Let’s just throw the spaghetti on the wall and see what happens. And then

what happens? People, the companies are hiring people back right now. So I’m not saying this

process is right or ethical or feel like it feels awful.

but as individuals we do have the initiative and the the agency to be like let’s look at what i

have now and to think about how can i pivot how can i utilize the resources i already have go into

your garage dig dig deep and see what are the yeah that we still have to get us through this and

learn something new. I think it’s a great opportunity for people to learn, to pick something new

right now.

So here are some of the kind of wisdoms that I’m gaining from our conversation.

One is both to look deeper into our own selves as humans to discover kind of what is valuable about

ourselves. I recently did this exercise with a community where I had them write their own,

everybody write your own career obituary and reinvent. or rediscover what makes you you because you

don’t know what you’re going to be selling or work where you’re going to be like what are the core

capabilities that you have but then you’re also saying pair that with looking forward here’s this

opportunity this time and for folks that are a little bit later in their career like me where

you’re like oh man like i gotta learn i gotta like You know, I already put my time in.

You know what I mean? Like I already did it. But, you know, I think if we learn anything from these

previous disruptions, it’s look at how you can reinvent yourself.

So backwards and forwards or inwards and outwards, let’s say. And then the other key piece,

which resonates for me, and I think I kind of discovered it also on my own path.

And then you said it. again, which is don’t do it alone.

You don’t have to tough it out, nor should you.

That is not how we, and let’s broaden this even further, how we have succeeded as a human race.

Individuality is not our strength. That’s not why we win, right? It’s about our communities.

Absolutely.

Tell me if I’ve got, if I’m missing anything. So you were talking about family,

talking about chosen family. So your good, your deep friendships, community, work,

previous work colleagues that you’ve built trust with. I don’t know, a broader social community.

Where else can we look? I mean, there are a lot of like organizations who may be providing like say

webinars right now for job seekers. And there are a lot of like recruiting companies or like

recruiters, you know, important area at least. They regularly host like workshops or webinars,

both online and in person for job seekers to come together and get advice and just to support each

other and be there for each other. like say, hey, I see you, I hear you. Oftentimes recruiters will

be at those events and that’s a great opportunity to have a conversation with those folks because

they are at the front line seeing what jobs are going away and what jobs are becoming available.

So I would definitely encourage folks to go to those events that really focus on job seeking

opportunities and challenges and have... with folks who are in this with you.

So the last thing that I want to touch on when we’re thinking about abundance and pushing forward

is not just looking for other work, but, and it’s kind of in this learning new skills,

but I believe there’s going to be a lot more entrepreneurialism in small individual companies

coming out in the world. And I wonder, how do we think about,

for someone who’s never

What is the abundance mindset for someone who has never, I guess,

worked for the self or created something for themselves? I mean, that is probably one of the most

scary things to do. Like, uh-oh, not only can I not jump to another ship,

I have to build my own boat. Mm-hmm.

I... I think a lot of people growing up have had this idea, you know,

I want to build something on my own. I’m going to be my own boss. Like growing up, my dream was to

have a book cafe yet to happen, but it’s possible.

So I’m not going to say, you know, go ahead and rent that space and, you know, put yourself in

debt. I’m never going to say that. What I would advise folks who have an idea.

I’d say maybe I can build this. Think about, first of all, why? Are you building something new just

for the sake of building something new so that you feel like you have something to do? Or you

genuinely think this is a problem that you can solve? Or by doing this,

you are actually supporting your community and doing something that’s actually meaningful,

both financially and socially. so think about the why and think about are you solving a real life

or real world problem are you just doing this and just and see how it’s gonna work right really

have that conversation with yourself and two again talk about it with your family with your

community and see if this is viable like say i’m just like making up an example that’s like a

traditional family setting, right? There are a lot of scenarios in community. Say I,

as a, you know, director of marketing at this company and I’m losing this job and I’m going to

lose, I don’t know, 150K. month like income to the family then perhaps have a conversation with

your partner and with your children even say hey we are losing this income and we have this much

money to go through this next phase and let’s look at our numbers and see what are the resources we

can tap into and see if that resource is enough to get us through the next at least nine months

think about that and see real Realistically, if you can do it, if you can,

great. You have your family buy-in. You have maybe even your parents buy-in. Perhaps they are

your initial investor even. Perhaps they can help you with the initial money to get it started.

But really to have that honest conversation with people who live with you,

who are very, very connected with you, to see if this is a viable idea, at least for the next nine

to 12 years. yeah and if that’s okay the green light go for it and if it’s not then maybe it’s time

to think about i’m gonna table that for now it doesn’t mean i don’t want to do that again later but

for the next six months maybe i will be able to find something temporary right with my skills if

you are director of marketing can you be a freelancer Are you good at writing?

Are you good at social media? Are you good at writing long form? For example,

do you want to start a sub stack? See if there’s something, anything in the interim that you can

do. And I’m not going to say love doing, but be okay with that.

Can I accept that? Yeah. Next six to nine months. My personal experience this year,

as I’ve looked to, you know, deep inside myself and also outside and to reinvent is thinking about

2026 has been my year of small experiments. And, you know, I started my sub stack.

I did a, you know, start a second podcast. I’m re you know, changing the way I, you know, I work

with clients. I’m looking at, you know, offering new things and. it’s a really interesting mindset

to go out as an experiment. Now there is that sort of like scarcity crisis. I got to make money now

sort of moment. But I think if you, that is one way to approach it is say,

okay, I’m going to put a couple bets, small bets on the table and see which ones are starting to

get traction. And I think there’s some, you know, pop, you know, real wisdom in sort of.

I think this kind of diversification where you’re not just yourself thinking about one thing,

it’s like your team thinking about many things is probably, you know,

might be the abundance, one way to kind of imagine an abundance mindset in this moment.

Yeah, definitely. Definitely try to be creative. Think of different ways to get through this time,

like specifically talking with people who are close to you, people who you trust. And if you have

like a cool idea that you want to start a business, then also have that honest conversation with

people and see if this is viable. um thing to do for the next nine months to 12 months i think um

and again this is not to say it’s a solution and like you mentioned josh it’s an experiment but the

point is as hard as times are now we’re not we’re not out of hope like we still have hope because

if we look around How many people like us are trying every day?

We’re not paralyzed by this challenge that’s thrown at us or that we ran into.

We may say, oh, this is so unfair. And I agree this is not fair. At the same time,

hope lives in action. So if we... If we actively act on things that we can do,

then I think there’s hope. And hope is a wonderful thing. It can really pull people through so many

challenges in this life. And again, I want to mention, you know, we are not alone, like you said,

Josh. Just look around. Everyone’s trying. And if we are just a little bit more courageous and say,

hey. I’m struggling now. Can I join you?

I think, you know, many people may find that very, very helpful and good things will happen.

I think if we keep that hope alive and act to it. You are starting a community or a course on

abundance. Tell the folks what you’re doing and where they can find this,

learn more and join. Yeah, thank you for asking. So my focus right now and has been really is

abundance and the abundance mindset. How can we come together?

and build a village of abundance so this new program is gonna be in video form and also gonna be

audio form and down the road we’ll probably have more kind of interactions with folks and have like

you said workshops and we already had a couple of workshops that focused on abundance and the

abundance mindset they are at like small scale but we are already like you said experimenting with

it and we are seeing really good feedback people really enjoyed it but going back to the new

program um i’m gonna launch a new video program. It’s called Abundance and Abundance with Joe.

So Abundance with Joe is going to be launched on my YouTube channel and also Substack and other

platforms as well in the very near future. Amazing. So you can learn more about Shofang at youtube

.com slash at intersectional group is where you can find her. She’s the founder of Intersectional

Group. She is an intersectionality practitioner, abundance mindset teacher, consultant and coach

helping leaders go through change using these as frameworks, which I have found tremendously

valuable, even just in this brief conversation. Thank you for lowering my anxiety just a little

bit. Just a little bit. I mean, maybe I raised anxiety for a lot of people.

I don’t know. It’s hard to say. It’s hard to say. Well, we’ll keep trying. Xiu Feng,

thank you so much for coming on Great Mondays Radio. Thank you, Josh. I really enjoyed it.