music as a time capsule

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on today’s issue of “joel” i’ve transcribed an interview that osi atikpoh of the podcast “a song called life” conducted with me (joel cherry tree). you can listen to this wherever podcasts are found. i really enjoyed our conversation. we cover all kinds of stuff;

• talking sh— on tour

• what’s the point of live music

• baby and jesus by joel cherry tree

• nostalgia for the moment

• alex g, frank ocean, blood orange, porches, playboi carti, dj screw

• eternal sunshine of the spotless mind manic pixie dream girl

• music as a time capsule

• genuine beautiful knowledge and insight which will better your life, of course

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OSI: it was just one of those days where I needed to take a break. it was easter and luckily, i literally could crawl to the ocean, i could just crawl to the beach, so i went to the sand. i didn’t even bother getting a towel. i just sat my ass in the sand, in my pants, just embracing the sand and everything. your album played, and i was like, man, this makes me feel like a kid again. part of why i’m excited to talk to you is because i want to get to understand the intimacy in your sound. cause there’s something about your music, man. i was listening to the rest of your album that you put out in 2024 (baby) and even some of the music from your band (king of heck), and there’s something about your music. it almost feels like “should i even be listening/hearing this?”. it’s so intimate that it feels like i’m eavesdropping on someone’s inner thoughts. it’s not necessarily that the details themselves are that personal, but it’s the way you deliver it. you deliver it like it’s a voice in your head saying these things. there’s something just so personal about it. i was so into it and i was hoping i could talk with you, and here we are! i know you’re on tour too, so i appreciate you taking the time to come on the show today, man. i mean shit, i guess we can start there, how’s the tour going?

JOEL: well right now i’m on tour with a band called hunny, i’m doing merch and tour managing for them. we’re on tour with a band called microwave and anthony green and the boom. done band, it’s been great. i’ve been friends with some of these guys for a while, so seeing them every day is nice. we’re in a van, following the buses, so the drives are a little brutal. but other than that, it’s been totally refreshing to be back out and see the country.

OSI: nice, i know for some artists, touring unlocks a certain creative side and then with other artists the only goal is to just stay healthy city to city, stay sane, keep some semblance of a sleep schedule and just try not to catch food poisoning and shit. is going on tour your favorite aspect of being an artist?

JOEL: it’s funny ‘cause i think as an artist, touring can be a little confusing; you go on stage and you have this cathartic big moment every night and then there’s a big contrast to the rest of your time on the road in between shows. when i’m selling merch or tour managing i can compartmentalize it as just a job and there’s not the same emotional whiplash. i love touring as a part of a crew because you get to appreciate the worst parts of tour. you can really see it for what it’s worth, you know. on the flip side though, performing is super fun! it’s just difficult sometimes to have a fully “good” experience touring as the artist.

OSI: exactly and especially with your music, man, i would want to experience it in an intimate setting. cause i’m curious if you deliver it the same way that you deliver it on the studio versions. do you try to create that intimate feeling live?

JOEL: yeah, when i’m sitting down and making a song, it’s about the urgency of my emotions and thoughts, a stream of conscious. i think that’s how i can really capture a feeling in a recording. it ends up being intimate in a way because it’s like a conversation. there’s no real barrier between a joel song and the listener. that was the exercise for both of those albums, just capture a feeling and have it on tape, basically.

OSI: mm-hmm. yeah, you touch on on quite a bit in the album. there’s some introspection. obviously, there’s you and then there’s some girl that’s influencing these songs. to me, it felt like the purest, early days in love, when you really like a girl. I’m talking like high school where there’s maybe a party or some shit and there’s a girl that you like going, so you want to go too. you want to see everyone at school, but there’s one girl in mind that you’re hoping to run into, and those early butterflies. those early romantic experiences are what I felt listening to your stuff. you have a very disney-like feeling of love. the way you created that environment where you allowed me as a listener to reminisce on my own shit was really brilliant. are you intentionally trying to create that nostalgia aspect?

JOEL: yeah, i definitely agree with that assessment of the tunes. ‘cause it is about immediate feeling and unabashed unafraid of being corny or contrived or anything. when i hear music that lets me feel the same way that i felt when i was younger, that’s what really i relate to in music. so when i’m making the songs, i really want it to be pure nostalgia. my older record, baby, we even had parts where the quality of the music was nostalgic, like tape warbling and things like you’re listening to an old vhs or you’re listening to found footage ass music. in the new one(jesus) i wanted to elevate the the production on it, but keep that same charm and nostalgia in the lyrics and songwriting.

OSI: yeah and i’m actually glad that you mentioned that, because what I like with baby and this album, jesus, it’s that you have a core sound that you can hear in both, but there’s something about this album that feels it feels polished in a way that i would believe it, if someone told me it was the soundtrack to a coming of age movie, you know what I mean?

JOEL: it’s not my intention one hundred percent to make that, but everything that I’m pulling from, movies and other songs that i’ve listened to in the past and my lived experience, it ends up coming together as a narrative like that. and so it’s natural and it’s immediate, but these things kind of end up kind of forging a way together. i don’t sit down and write, hey, this is the beginning of the coming of age and this is the end. it’s kind of like just compiling all those ideas ends up with that trajectory.

OSI: listening to king of heck and trying to identify your influences in that music, your work with your band leans a little bit more into the pop side. how did this core sound come to be, whether that was an early influences or something that led you to your sound.

JOEL: i think that with the solo music, honestly, it’s a lot of modern stuff that i’m influenced by. king of heck gets a lot of influence from other members of the bands and it ends up being more of a rock sound. it was originally conceived as a screamo band. for the solo stuff, i really like alex g, i listen to an artist called porches a lot, i love porches, i listen to blood orange, and frank ocean. a lot of it comes from more like indie, rb, hip hop and like lo-fi or pop stuff.

OSI: i love that you say that because like with stinky, i’m a sucker for any anytime vocals and guitar are playing the melody along like with each other. it feels like this intimate like practice session almost. I like some songs you have in where it’s kind of stripped and vulnerable in that way, but then like there’s other moments where you decide to like really make it heavy, throw in some distortion, stuff like that. what was the thought process in terms of knowing when it feels right to add a little bit more and when it feels right to strip it down?

JOEL: stinky is a good example of something where everything else falls out and we’re just here with the melody. this kind of lullaby influence that frank ocean does a lot, alex g does this a lot, a blood orange, yeah. Those those three will just have an earworm that feels childish, but the the lyrics are like coming of age, intimate in a way. if something stands out it’s almost obvious to me that it should be bare bones. There’s the ending of this song thinkin’, where it’s almost like salem, crazy loud trap drums and distorted synthesizer and it’s just chaos. those moments on the record come pretty close to each other, so it’s like something heavy just happened, then I naturally think “this would be a good time to introduce something softer and more stripped back”. stinky and jesus were the last two songs written for the record, and they’re both the softest most introspective moments. listening to the record i thought it needed something to cut through. my friend eric sings a kind of call and response vocal and kind of counterpoints the romantic narrative with his lyrics about his dog that we all lived together with, shuggie, who passed away. it’s a real special moment to have on the record and you have to be open to the idea that things like that can happen. so that you can be surprised and give an album depth.

OSI: also, i don’t know how the fuck it took me this long to ask you this, but you put this album out two days before easter, and you titled it jesus. it’s funny because i think that’s the obvious question i was gonna ask; why’d you title the album album jesus? but then you get lost in the music that the title almost becomes irrelevant because the music is so good. but why the title jesus? like how’d you get there?

JOEL: it’s something that felt like it summed up the whole experience of the record. king of heck has a record called everyday friend. that’s our our latest album, like 2023. and there’s a song on there called billboard. on billboard, is the whole conceit for my solo project. which is; when you proclaim love so much or you love something so unconditionally and kind of unrequited. the gesture of loving grandly is summed up in a billboard. like the jesus billboards that you see when you drive through middle america, which just say “jesus” in huge text on the side of the highway. jesus didn’t ask for this. he didn’t sign off on this and he doesn’t see it in the way that you and I see it. i think that making songs is a little bit like putting up a billboard saying how much you love someone, something, a place. and the people didn’t ask for it.

OSI: with a lot of millennial or gen z content about anything with religion, you always expect this hint of irony. jesus tends to be the butt of the joke a lot of times. it’s unfortunately rare, especially in the music industry. when you see the word god or jesus, nine times out of ten, it’s like a gimmicky thing, but you’re actually coming at it from a real place of respect, which is cool.

JOEL: the irony for me is almost post-ironic of that, where like, hey, this guy maybe has some criticism but also has some commentary on this whole experience that we share. you know when you see a jesus is love shirt, i reverse engineer that equation. I hope that nobody takes it as a joke, everything has humor, but it’s not in opposition or to disrespect jesus. i just wanted to make some music that can bring us together around the idea of love.

OSI: on that note, i think the things that human beings have done in the name of jesus are a lot crazier than jesus himself.

JOEL: it’s a crazy time to have a record called that… i like the baggage of all the symbolism, but I don’t love the baggage of people who will use any excuse to do something awful. it seems so out of touch with what jesus or any religion should should preach and is definitely just an excuse to to do really crazy awful shit.

OSI: no dude I hear you, man.

JOEL: also i don’t tackle in that album. it’s a little bit blinders on, this is about love.

OSI: because i listened to it on easter, and then seeing the word jesus, i was like, okay, let’s see if like let’s see if there’s like any christian music on this thing or whatever.

JOEL: that would have been a good idea.

OSI: the way that you explained it really does capture the album because my very first thoughts were that it brought me back to the childlike view of love. i mean fuck, what captures jesus more than that?

JOEL: there’s a level of naivety and greenness to it. it was good that i had the album mostly done before i settled on on the concept, because it would have been a lot to get into the nooks and crannies of everything.

OSI: do you think if the concept came first you would have gotten a bit too into your head about it?

JOEL: i’m a big believer that with an artist, if you trust an artist, musician, painter, or whatever, filmmaker, then you’re gonna give them grace, in terms of their artistic decisions. like if you think taylor swift is a genius, then every time she says a word or color blue or pink or whatever, you’re going to assume that she’s making an artistic decision that aligns with a theme. if you don’t like taylor swift and you don’t think that she’s a good artist, then you’re not gonna say that every decision she makes is intentional. so with me, when i’m writing music, i give myself that grace and i just say everything that i’m doing is going to point in a direction. and instead of having the end in mind, i’m just gonna follow these decisions.

OSI: yeah the most valuable thing about going to music school is teaching you how to interact with music outside of yourself. a big part of it is that this shit isn’t about you. try to get into the mind of the artist when listening to something, put yourself in like a neutral space. your very first listener interaction with it just needs to be you. i wouldn’t even go as far as saying trusting them, but being a blank canvas and not putting anything into it from yourself. when I listen to playlists, especially with new music, i purposefully don’t look at the names of the songs or names of the artist so that i have no preconceived notions. even if i don’t know the artist but their artist name is something that i think is stupid, i might subconsciously disrespect the art just from that little detail.

JOEL: i want to have good experiences listening to music and there is a lot of noise that gets in the way of a good listening experience. it’s sad because even just the other day i realized wow, i haven’t really heard a new record that i liked from a new artist in a long time. the mj lenderman record that came out last year was that for me. i had never heard of him, sure a lot of people have been saying it’s good but i was able to hear it in a pure form where i’m not judging it based on anything but the music. with the internet in general, you’re exposed to things possibly before you’re ready to hear it. or you’re supposed to have an opinion of something before you’re ready to form your own idea of it. geese is a great example of a band i didn’t like. everybody was getting so into it, i didn’t understand it. but on a drive recently we listened and i totally got it. i was a little bit blinded by the opinions of people in the other way, being contrarian. i love the guy’s solo album from the start though, it’s incredible.

OSI: speaking of going solo, there’s a lot of psychological adjustment required to be a solo act especially if your core musical experiences are based in a group. i say this as the most group reliant instrument ever, a fucking tuba player. the baseline and foundation for everything. i’m curious if those core musical experiences for you started in a band and if you ever if you had to go through some musical journey, redefining yourself mentally as a solo artist?

JOEL: kind of. It happened pretty young though. i was in a band, like a kind of screamo emo punk band called alaska, when i was in high school and college. we toured a lot and we were kind of diy rockers, toured the country, all that. but the first tour that we did, i think the first day of that tour, our lead singer bailed. so me and the bass player, my friend tyler, had to learn all the vocals and perform it literally that night. so it was pretty quick. i went from being the rhythm guitar player to the front person of the band. the stakes were pretty low, so that helped, just playing vets hall or a house or a basement or something. those tours back then were two month long and we did a lot of crazy drives so it was super foundational. rock and roll lead singer boot camp, in a way. after that, when we wrote songs, tyler and i wrote the vocals. having him as somebody to lean on, eased me into the process of songwriting and performing. and then present day, having all of these influences that are solo artists. frank and alex g and and dev hynes. they’re solo artists, but they build big musical things behind them. which i respect. they take a band approach to the whole solo artist thing.

OSI: so you gotta very immediately literally put yourself in some other person’s shoes. all the influences you named, even though they’re all different, they’re technically different genres. i love what bridges all of them is that intimacy like you’re eavesdropping on someone’s personal thoughts type of feeling. was that always the lane of songwriting that you gravitated toward?

JOEL: yeah, going into the solo artist concept, i felt free. i was a little embarrassed in a king of heck song to talk about love or whatever, just because that was a totally collaborative band. and even now when we make a record, we all get together and do it. the latest record was kind of a departure from that process where it was half solo record, half band kind of thing. so it took a step in a more intimate unfiltered stream of conscious lyric and songwriting process. by the time we get to baby, it’s like deeply confessional, gushing, diary entry vibe. i’m proud of it. i thought it would take a bit longer for me to that level of openness. also when you’re writing songs about people with that level of of sincerity, you can’t really control it once it’s out there. i don’t know how everybody feels about everything i’ve written about them, but they know how i feel.

OSI: i’ve talked to artists on all different scales about that. it’s really interesting to see how shit like that plays out when an artist is really big, like one of the girls that the beatles are singing about and they name drop you, your life’s about to fucking change immediately. once it’s out there, it’s out there. that’s one of the beauties of song. i mean, there’s certain things that you can only tell people through song, or for some reason it just feels easier.

JOEL: a lot of these songs started off like, i’m just gonna send this to my friend, or i went on a date and i’ll send them this song that has to do with what just happened. sometimes that’ll be the genesis of a song and then months later, years later i’ll finish it up if it’s good. and it’s sometimes about somebody i only knew for a short amount of time and it sounds so deeply personal. there’s a bit of awkwardness in that, but i think that’s the path of an artist is gonna be cringe and embarrassing but I have to get it off my chest. plus i want people to be more willing to share their art in a confessional way and why not? the leap is the scariest thing and then it feels so good expressing yourself and having people react, relating to your feelings that are a little bit personal and and you can feel less alone if everybody is relates.

OSI: in nightmare girl, like i was saying before it feels like those early experiences when like girls are still perfect angels. that song feels like the opposite, you overcorrect in your like brain, this like girls like a demon and like you know, like cause she’s like not this like perfect person, the way you deliver it, it literally feels like a fucking nightmare. i was halfway through a joint last night listening to to the album again, and that that song came out and i was just like, yo, what the fuck was this guy on when he made this song in particular? like the way you distort your voice like ugly crying, how did you like decide to deliver it like that?

JOEL: for that song i was watching a lot of movies that had “crazy” antagonist women in them. eternal sunshine was one where the girl is representing everything that’s gone wrong in this guy’s life. he’s created an image of her that is so distorted, at the same time he’s mentally erased her from his memory, the distortion comes from him. then when she’s in the movie, she’s a pretty normal person. they have a pretty normal relationship that just fell apart. i kept seeing this same manifestation of a manic pixie dream girl kind of thing. and so manic pixie dream girl is like nightmare girl, just re-contextualized. also it was at the beginning of my current relationship, and so i’m dealing with baggage from my past, but also falling in love. there’s some lyrics that are so lovey that i was able to take from my new experiences, but it’s contrasted with a more complex, disturbed and distorted view of love. playboy carti, “music” may have just came out, but a better reference, is “whole lot of red” which is very distorted. he sings about love in a crazy really emotional way. he’s a very emotional guy, and I think that is beautiful. also this artist bladee that I like a lot does that too. almost like they’re upset about love.

OSI: rappers are lucky because they get to take it all the way there with the misogyny…

JOEL: yeah, i guess that was a lot of a lot of fancy words to say that playboi carti is misogynist.

OSI: but people love it, it’s an awkward thing. male anger towards a woman is a very difficult thing to tastefully express in art.

JOEL: i think that music is a great art form because it can be everything about life. it can be funny, it can be happy, it can be angry, sad, it can be boring. and boring music can be good! sometimes people will be listening to something and say it’s boring, and there’s a time and place for boring music. it can be the best thing you’ve heard. we’re in a real adhd rapid consumption era. so boring can be fine.

OSI: i agree with that a hundred percent. i’ve always thought of music more cinematically in the sense that like like like when people say they only like one genre, this or that. imagine a movie about a cowboy, there’s a lot of country music, but then the cowboy stops at a liquor store deep in the hood or some shit. then the soundtrack switches to like some like project pat, some like old school hip hop or some shit. the movie is moving according to the setting. the movie’s telling you there’s a time and place for everything.

JOEL: when I think of southern music, I don’t really think of country, which is ironic. i think of three six mafia or Outcast. i think of country music, when i think of Texas or something. i would like to hear a fusion of that, country music dj screw.

OSI: i love that were we’re touching on rap right now, because there are a couple moments in the album where in terms of your flow, he kinda wants to rap here.

JOEL: frank ocean is a great example he raps, but across his album, there’s parts where there’s no drums, there’s parts where there’s just singing melody, there’s parts where he’s rapping, there’s parts where there’s trap drums. he really like goes across the whole playing field. that is what is enticing to me about making music by myself and i have the options to go anywhere that i want. there’s a song called trees in love where i do a lullaby rap kind of melody. it’s inspired a little bit by this artist coco and claire claire. they’re awesome.

OSI: i like that you you’re pulling from a whole bunch of stuff because and to hear you confirm that conversation, because there’s no way this is a coincidence. there’s like some of these flows, you could throw like a rapper on these it would like flow perfectly.

JOEL: we’ve done tours, with rappers and and spoken word artists. they’re bridging that gap. i’ve been around it a lot where it’s second second nature. also living in the bay area, there’s mostly hip hop and rap in terms of the culture here. i can’t go on the press for the album and say this is for fans of playboy carti or or frank ocean. i don’t know if fans of that music would find something to enjoy in the album, like “hey, if you like frank ocean’s beautiful orchestral intellectual music, check out my record i made with my friends.”

OSI: that’s interesting though, because there’s two ways to come up with a playlist. you can make a playlist in where like it’s it’s the unifying factor is the sound itself or the factor is the feeling. and i think that your music is right in line. it’s interesting that you can feel intimacy in any genre of music. if you were to design a playlist of like-minded songs, based on that vibe, you would have songs across all genres. which is a way better unifier, besides like a live scenario. just in day to day life, it’s probably better to associate things based on how it feels, you know? I think that a live scenario it probably makes sense to keep keep the energy like more the more.

JOEL: yeah.

OSI: it’s funny how much a second album cements something and confirms a person’s sound. would it be fair to expect some variation of this sound that you’ve now crafted for your next project? Or are you like, i’m gonna just like shock the shit out of the people?

JOEL: i wish it was more shocking, but i wrote a lot of songs for this jesus record. and so i have a record in the wings already just from songs that either needed something added or or whatever. so it’s a continuation on this sound for sure. i wanna take it further in both directions where folkier, crunchier, softer, weirder, but also louder and more energetic. ‘cause i like how “stinky” gets down there, but would have been nice to really touch the floor, you know? then “thinkin’” kind of gets loud and crazy. your floor kind of gets loud at the end there. but yeah, i think it’ll really touch the fucking ceiling and touch the floor.

OSI: i’m really looking forward to it, man. thank you for not only this conversation, but just a great album. again, this album brought up shit that i haven’t felt in a while. i remember being in social studies or some shit, and the teacher would pick the groups for you and you’re hoping she puts you in the group with the girl that you have a crush on, very specific feelings, naive in a positive way, naive in a way where you still have blind hope for the world and for love. i loved that the album took me back there. and i think the sound environment that you created on this record is really special, so congrats to you, man.

JOEL: thank you i’m glad that it can transport people. i wanted to make an album that could be a capsule of a time, cement a moment. i think five years, ten years from now, whatever, it’ll be a good place to go back to for everybody who’s listening, to be nostalgic for the present. the best thing about music is it can be a real like a real marker of time.

OSI: it definitely will be. you’re right. ‘cause when i’m eighty and i’m reminiscing about these days, like this will be the new nostalgia for me.

JOEL: that’s why we have to make art. that’s why we have to make art, to remember.

thanks for reading joel! your support makes it happen!

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