How can curiosity change the way you approach a challenge?
In this special episode of How We Future, Lisa Kay Solomon travels to the Eames Institute of Infinite Curiosity in Richmond, California, for a conversation with Llisa Demetrios, Chief Curator of the Institute and granddaughter of legendary designers Ray and Charles Eames.
Surrounded by the Eames collection itself, Lisa and Llisa explore the stories, philosophies, and design principles that shaped Ray and Charles’ extraordinary work. From iconic furniture to exhibitions, films, architecture, toys, and educational experiences, the Eames believed that design is about solving problems with empathy, curiosity, and care.
Together, they discuss why prototyping beats perfection, why asking better questions matters more than having quick answers, and how designing for everyone who touches a product—not just the end user—can transform the way we solve problems.
In this conversation, you’ll hear about:
How curiosity, play, and experimentation fueled decades of innovation.
The importance of learning through failure.
Why great design considers every person involved
The story behind the famous Eames chairs
Whether you’re a designer, educator, leader, parent, or simply someone trying to navigate an increasingly complex world, this conversation is a reminder that curiosity is a skill we can all practice.
If this conversation resonated with you, we’d love to hear from you.
What’s one problem in your own life or work that could benefit from a little more curiosity?
Share your thoughts in the comments, and if you enjoyed this episode, follow How We Future wherever you get your podcasts and leave a rating or review. It helps more curious minds discover the show.
Moments of Impact by Lisa Kay Solomon and Chris Ertel
Want to contact us? Email hello@howwefuture.com
Lisa Kay Solomon: I’m Lisa Kay Solomon, and this is How We Future, where I talk to some of my favorite changemakers about shaping tomorrow starting today.
Well, Llisa, thank you so much for inviting us to be here today. I have been looking forward to this to the moment you said yes. I’m just so, so grateful.
Llisa Demetrios: Well, I’m so thrilled that you’re here, and it’s so exciting to be sharing this with your audience and just this new experience that we’re creating. I just love how you are engaging with an audience that really wants to improve the world through design and opening these doors to conversations in new ways. Really admire the show that you put together.
Lisa Kay: Well, I can’t wait for all of them to know what is happening here in this incredible space that we are going to talk to, and increasingly, people are asking me, who listens to How We Future? The answer is really not any one demographic, but it is more of a spirit of people looking for hope, people looking for ways to navigate this moment. I feel like that is exactly what the Eames Institute for Infinite Curiosity is also trying to do, is to remind people that we can problem-solve even in the most difficult of challenges.
Llisa D: Right. I think being able to design your way out of it, and maybe people use different words than design, but being able to understand what the constraints are, what the opportunities are. I’m hoping that when guests come here, it’s an opportunity to be like, “Oh, this is how Ray and Charles did it. Maybe that’s another way that I could consider when I’m approaching a problem.”
I think what’s so interesting is my grandparents were so elliptical in how they approached a problem or even the questions they asked. If they’re designing this chair, they would call it actually designing seating because they said if you call it designing a chair, you’re limiting the ottoman before you’ve thought of it. Being able to share that in different ways and watch people like, “Oh, now I get it,” is really exciting here.
Lisa Kay: Well, there’s so many ways to enter this extraordinary space, but let’s really orient the folks that are watching and listening, where are we sitting?
Llisa D: We are at the Eames Institute of Infinite Curiosity. We are at the Richmond location. This nonprofit started many years ago, where my mom had an art collection in Petaluma. At that point, it was word of mouth. If somebody heard about it, they were welcome to come and have lunch with Mom and me and look at more of the collection and see these objects that my mother had inherited. Really, it started after Ray passed away. Charles passed away in 1978, and Ray passed away in 1988. We knew some material would go to the Library of Congress to be available for research. That included shipping 750,000 slides, images, and prints. My mom did that.
Then Ray said, “Keep what you want. Sell the building.” It was going to need a retrofit, and if she could, take care of the Eames house. My mom did that, and what she decided to do was keep everything. I’m so glad she did because she knew that most people knew Ray and Charles for their furniture, but she also wanted to share about the National Aquarium proposal, also that they made graphics, architecture. All these other ways that they were pursuing design.
She brought to San Francisco. There was the earthquake there in 1989, which is what drew her to Petaluma, and working with the wonderful architect William Turnbull on creating two spaces to be able to house the collection and also to take care of it and share it.
Lisa Kay: It’s incredible. We are specifically sitting within one of the gallery spaces. This is their living area.
Llisa D: Yes. In this space, what we decided, so every year here at Richmond, where we brought the collection after it left Petaluma, what was interesting is we wanted to create opportunities to be immersed in the material as much as possible. Where we are now is in the Life Gallery of Ray and Charles. What I love about it is we are sharing, there’s little references behind you to books by their friends, or also Isamu Noguchi, who they welcomed when he was starting to work with Herman Miller. At their home, they had a beautiful tea ceremony. Charlie Chaplin was there. We also reference Eero Saarinen, who they designed the case study house program, worked on that.
There’s many, many references in this room, but the part that I love is when you cross into the next room. It’s also the same people they worked with, whether that’s Alexander Girard or also Billy Wilder. Their life and also their work were seamless. One leads to the other.
Lisa Kay: What our friends who are watching, maybe you can imagine across this way, is this enormous, gorgeous gallery that really documents the depth and breadth of their work that, as you said, they did with many, many different partners across nearly every industry. For the folks that are newer maybe to Ray and Charles Eames, tell us about who they are.
Llisa D: Ray and Charles are an extraordinary couple, where Ray grew up in Sacramento and came from painting. She grew up in Sacramento. She moves to New York to study fashion. She then goes to Hans Hofmann Studio and studies painting. From there, she becomes one of the co-founders of the American Abstract Artist in 1937, a group. What’s amazing, then she goes by Cranbrook. That’s where she meets Charles. Soon after, they will get married and move to Los Angeles.
Charles is an architect by training and grew up in St. Louis, and works on several buildings that then are seen by Eliel Saarinen, Eero’s father, at Cranbrook. Then he’s invited to teach there. That’s, again, where they meet.
The easiest, probably the shorthand version I could put it as that Ray and Charles, though they each came from a different background, one from architecture and one from painting, they really believed design was a way to solve problems. They actually said, “We don’t do art. We solve problems.” Really, it was like love what you do and not be afraid where the next idea leads you. The way that they would talk about it is one solution would inform the next solution.
Lisa Kay: I love hearing the history of their disciplines, Ray a painter, Charles an architect, and then how they come together and seem to learn together, question together, be ambitious together across so many different industries. It’s extraordinary. I think that the gallery does such an unbelievable job, both being very intimate with their backgrounds and also telling the larger story of the impact that they’ve had. I think for folks that maybe know them from these gorgeous chairs, the Eames chairs, probably one of the most famous artifact that they’ve created, they are really two of the most holistic designers and the kind of impact that they’ve had that I’ve ever had the chance to learn from.
Llisa D: I agree. What I love is I remember things as a granddaughter. I understand what they made, but now I understand how they made it. That’s what I get to do as chief curator here. I think what’s really special is these layers in the designs that they came up with. When they designed the solar toy, it was a way to introduce these alternatives to fossil fuels because the toy is run by a solar panel. When they were trying to do the National Aquarium proposals because they were concerned about the environment, and how do you get people engaged in ocean conservation, how do you make the invisible visible?
To me, what’s exciting is just watching these ideas. These needs are still here today, working within these constraints. We’re showing how Ray and Charles did it. As I said, many people are inspired. We’re like a catalyst to inform their way of thinking the next time they have to solve a problem.
Lisa Kay: When I was thinking about preparing for this conversation, this is going to sound so silly, but I was taken back to the Sesame Street, where they would say, “This episode was brought to you by the letter--” whatever. I feel like the way they worked was brought to you by the letter P. I’m going to explain why. It feels like everything they did, first of all, started with a point of view. Their point of view, wanting to have a greater impact for the people that they were designing for. Design is not about an artifact.
Then, when I think about the people that they engaged, they really turned out to be partners. Maybe we’ll pause there before we go into it, but I wonder if you could share some of the people that they worked with.
Llisa D: There’s some extraordinary people like just Charles working with Eero Saarinen on the very first chair designed for Kleinhans Music Hall, and being able to create that chair that informs the next chair that they win the organic design competition. Even then, that leads to the chair that then Ray and Charles will design by 1946. Saarinen, Alexander Girard with the beautiful textiles. You also have Billy Wilder. If you asked Ray and Charles who their favorite architect was, they would say Billy Wilder because how you put a film together is a structure, and that’s architecture. Isamu Noguchi. The list just goes on and on. As I said, I love that it’s both their friends, but also those who they’re working with.
Lisa Kay: It seemed like they worked with them for decades. As you said, they were both friends and also business colleagues, and that was really important to their process.
Llisa D: It really was. The other part is I also enjoyed how they kept asking questions and revisiting things. If you asked Ray and Charles sometimes some of the chairs they designed later in life, someone would say, “Did you design that in a flash?” and they’d say, “Yes, a 30-year flash,” because it really started with this design, which leads to this design and that design. The same thing was also working with their friends. They would come back and keep working on different projects in different ways, finding ways to work together, too.
Lisa Kay: Must have been so fun for the partners, too. The big theme that we’re covering, of course, is curiosity. Who doesn’t want to feel engaged on working on something?
Llisa D: Right. Exactly. I remember hearing from someone who worked at the office that when Ray and Charles came over to you, they never said, “Are you done?” but rather, “What did you find interesting?” Really, Ray and Charles’s boundless curiosity is what we’re celebrating in the title of Eames Institute of Infinite Curiosity, because it’s an opportunity to be able to share that it’s not siloed. Eventually, everything connects, is what Ray and Charles said. It could be by distance, it can be by material, it can be chronological. That’s how we’re also relating the material in the collection.
Our goal is always to have an immersive feeling in it. If you notice, we really don’t have labels, so you’re more caught up by the artifact. I think in today’s age, with so much being digital, people are really curious about the analog, the prototyping that Ray and Charles did, prototyping and then iterating and then iterating again, and really testing their designs. I don’t think people realize how much testing of their designs went into it before it was mass-produced.
Lisa Kay: You’ve told a great story about some of their early testing on chairs when they were working with Herman Miller, trying to figure out how to create not just really a beautiful chair, which was less of their interest, but a chair that worked.
Llisa D: Yes.
Lisa Kay: I wonder if we could talk about that.
Llisa D: Sure. For Ray and Charles, was never to make a chair once. It was how to make a chair 100,000 times. What’s interesting is, for them, they were really testing them out. They, at first, tried a three-legged chair. They thought that was a wonderful idea. Then they tested it. No one could get out of their three-legged chair without falling. They were like, “We’re not going to teach anyone how to sit. We’re going to work with how people like to sit.” Really just being that engaged in the process.
Also, Ray and Charles believed in hands-on learning. While they were making the first prototypes, they realized they had to make the prototypes, but also the machines that made the prototypes, because how something is made influences design, and then that is where they let the design come from what they learned. That’s how it leads to the LCW.
The other part that I think is important that I’d like to share is when our audience comes and guests come through the spaces, and they see these different chairs, we’re familiar that these materials were used for chairs. People were not, at the time, when they were coming out in the ‘40s and ‘50s. Ray and Charles felt that you had to prove to the buyer that it was going to be durable and it was going to last. At one point, they had a giant gerbil wheel for an LCW, a lounge chair with a wood base, tumbling in it, showing it wasn’t going to break. They created invitations for people to come to the showroom to sit in their chairs.
There’s all these ways that they felt the guest-host relationship was important as a designer of the chair. It was very interesting how today, some of the longest guarantees on furniture is by Herman Miller because they tested them. Ray and Charles had them use the sandbag 10,000 times or whatever, just to prove to people it would last.
Lisa Kay: There’s so much attention to detail in everything that they do. What’s the material? What’s the joints? What does it take to replace? It’s just incredible. Then that becomes invisible. It just becomes this adorable furniture that you don’t just own, but you love. You have this emotional connection to them. I think that is on display so beautifully in the archive. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about how that attention to detail really permeated everything that they did.
Llisa D: I always loved they had a saying something about where two materials meet, watch out because that’s most likely where it will break on a chair. They also felt that a chair, they could give that attention to detail because they could control all the parts. That’s why they called it architecture you could hold in your hand. For them, it was always an opportunity to iterate and to make the prototype, but also make the first 5,000 before shipping it all to Herman Miller, who could scale it up from there. Yes, it is about the details all through the designs.
Lisa Kay: Another reason why I thought about the letter P is because I know play is so important to them and how play then informed a posture of prototyping, of trying things out.
Llisa D: They said, take your pleasure seriously. They really believed that toys could be preludes to serious ideas, like that solar toy that I mentioned before. It’s also like it was a way to engage their audiences. On the wall on the opposite side, we have 200 boxes from their toy collection. In the collection we have here, it’s both what Ray and Charles made, that they collected and were given.
Actually, as they traveled, they found there were two toys in every culture they visited. They were kites and tops. If you think about kites and tops, they’re so well designed, you forgot they were designed. They’re designed over generations and by more than one person. I remember growing up and visiting the office, and there were kites and tops, I felt, in almost every room, because it’s also a great icebreaker. What’s better than having some tops on the table to spin around, when you arrive and are waiting for a meeting to start?
Lisa Kay: It’s such a great way to lower the barrier. I wrote a book a number of years ago about designing strategic conversations and how you get people in a room to be generative, to be curious, to be willing to discover their way into the future. We have a whole chapter on setting the scene because the environment matters so much. The fault, I think, is to say we have a really serious problem, so we should go to a serious space, a boardroom that doesn’t have any windows, with big leather chairs that make you want to go to sleep, across a big table. Everybody has their guard up, they’re nervous about being wrong. That’s very different than walking into a place that has tops and toys and things to play with.
Llisa D: Exactly. What was great is there’d be so many different projects happening at one time at the office. In one given year, they could be doing an exhibit, furniture design. They could be doing a graphic, a scale model, a national aquarium. There were saltwater tanks still there when I was growing up. It was incredible, but it all connected in a way. Also, what surprises people is we have some broken pieces of furniture in the collection, pieces that they saved because they knew where to make it better the next time.
For me, one of the things that ties very much is, for Ray and Charles, it was always about what was the need. Even if you were Budweiser and came to them and they were asked to redesign the label for the bottle, they looked at it for a few months just doing everything it needs to, and gave it back. Even if you thought you knew what your need was. Again, it’s really that universal bringing people together. I also remember Charles saying one time he was being interviewed and someone said, “Hey, isn’t it great that your furniture’s at the airport?” He said, “No, I’d much rather see what you guys are doing here.” That curiosity is just what I love we can imbue in the spaces here.
Lisa Kay: Some of the stories I’ve heard you talk about, too, are not just about their design process for the people that might sit in the chair, but also for the people that have to maintain the chair or maintain the space. They really paid attention to all of the potential touch points. I wonder if you could talk about that too.
Llisa D: Absolutely. That really started for Charles when he was still at Cranbrook designing those first chairs with Eero. He and Eero, because they were both training as architects, were talking about, “What is your job as an architect?” The analogy they came up with is being the host of a party. Your job is to anticipate the needs of your guests before they’ve thought of it. What I love is when Ray and Charles are designing chairs, they’re thinking about everyone who’s going to touch that chair, how it’s going to be shipped, to how it’s going to also be sat in, and who’s going to have to take care of it. That leads them to some amazing problem-solving.
When they’re asked to design the airport seating for Chicago O’Hare, the first people they talk to, the maintenance teams at several airports to find out what is the biggest problem they could help with. They were like, “Well, what’s wrong with the existing airport seating? If it’s that good, then you should just keep doing that.” What they found, though, was that the maintenance team said it was the replacement parts. Ray and Charles asked more questions. They were like, “If you have replacement parts, that’s good. What’s wrong with them?”
It was explained to them that back and the seat were two different shapes, heavily upholstered, took up a lot of storage, took two or three of them to pop out the old and put in the new. The next time you look at airport seating that my grandparents designed, you’ll notice the back and the seat are the same shape, the fabric rolls up into a little tube. It takes one person and one screwdriver to pop out the old and put in the new. That problem-solving is why I think their designs last.
Lisa Kay: Oh my gosh. I hope we have someone listening from Chicago or has been through O’Hare so they can take a-- [crosstalk]
Llisa D: Detroit has a lot. There’s some amazing airports to this day who have miles of airport tandem seating.
Lisa Kay: It also strikes me that hand in hand with that curiosity is humility. It’s around like, “I don’t know what the answer is,” or “I might have thought what the answer is, but by questioning, I’m learning that there’s a different approach.”
Llisa D: I love that you bring that up because that’s the gift I think I got to see. I was 12 when Charles passed away and 22 when Ray did. Even then, the projects they were working on, they were just talking about them, trying to understand the needs to be addressed, what would be better. I got to see them. The answers weren’t just plucked out of the air. It was something that they really worked towards. In fact, sometimes people said, “Oh, no, you guys are geniuses,” and they were like, “No, we just work later at the office.”
They also didn’t believe in gifted view. They believed people get good at what they like to do, so go find what you like to do. That’s what they said to each of us grandchildren. I wanted to be a sculptor. The first thing Charles says to me, “Well, then you need to use every tool as well, if not better than the person you hire, or you won’t know if they’re doing a good job.” I can drive a forklift. I can MIG and TIG weld, and do all that. It allowed me to control the pace of the projects, what I wanted to do, and I didn’t have to wait for anybody. That’s what they did. They walked the walk.
Lisa Kay: That’s such an important lesson, particularly now when technology is taking a lot of friction out of nearly everything, learning or doing a task or writing, and that, even if you get an outcome, doesn’t mean it’s the right outcome. I think lessons from them are really sticking to it, making sure you understand what quality looks like for you, and not outsourcing that.
Llisa D: What I love is there are some groups that have come here, and what they take away is that there’s not a fear of failure. It’s just try out the idea and then see where that leads you.
Lisa Kay: Gosh, can we just put that on big banners everywhere, up in the sky?
Llisa D: Yes.
Lisa Kay: I feel like, particularly for our young people, they’ve just been, because of social media, in part, under scrutiny for so much of their lives that they’re scared to make mistakes because they feel like the stakes are so, so high, so this reminder that that is the path to learning, that you can be curious on the other side of that.
Llisa D: Absolutely. I think just watching how they did that through the whole course of their lives was just incredible. I also loved how they questioned things. When they made the Powers of Ten film, most people know the 1978 version, which is in color, but they did one 10 years earlier. When they made it, they actually talked to scientists at every one of those orders of magnitude to see if what they were sharing was accurate.
When it was explained to them by the physicist that we don’t know what the clocks are going to do at the speed of light, they took them out. Also, somebody said, “If you want to see that spiral of the Milky Way, you have to come out of Chicago, not Florida.” They made those adjustments just to keep making something better.
Lisa Kay: I think that video has had more positive impact on young scientific minds curious about the heavens, curious about the micro, than I think anything that I’ve seen.
Llisa D: I think it has. At the time, it was probably moving very quickly. It’s very fast if you think about it, but at the same time, it conveys so much information. What’s fun is people might have remembered playing with a house of cards or seeing Powers of Ten, and then they’re like, “Oh, they also designed that lounge chair and ottoman.” It’s really fun to watch their brains click and be like, “Oh, you can design all those things.”
Lisa Kay: All of those things. I actually don’t know the origin story of Power of Ten video. Was that a personal project, or was that--
Llisa D: It was a project that they-- What’s interesting is I always feel like sometimes the tools catch up to them. They were really testing, even before those two films, another film before that, if they could get the shots correctly. There’s a wonderful children’s book by [unintelligible 00:21:18], where they actually credit where he was explaining to the young school children how the cat on the couch, in the room, in the house, in the city, that’s scaling up. They just took this idea even further with 40 jumps. He was doing 40 jumps, but they did 40 orders of magnitude.
There’s always a play with words with my grandparents, which is the power of adding a zero. Well, that sounds like it’s nothing, but it’s actually showing with orders of magnitude how powerful that zero is.
Lisa Kay: You can see, again, that theme that you were mentioning earlier from Eero Saarinen around a chair in a room, a room in a house, a house on a block. Again, that holistic perspective that you’re not just designing in isolation, that you have to pay attention to the relationships.
Llisa D: Absolutely. I think for me, my goal is what we’re doing here is really-- I think design can never start too young. I was doing workshops in my children’s third-grade classes, and watching even then watch Powers of Ten was really amazing, how easily they connected with this. This is more before the iPhone and everything, but it was just fascinating how they got it. The future is powerful.
Lisa Kay: You would tell these great stories about even how they engaged with you as a young girl. You’ve got a great story that I’d love for you to share about having borscht for dinner.
Llisa D: Yes. I’m often asked what my earliest memory of spending time with my grandparents is, and it’s going out to dinner with them. I’m about eight years old. Where their office is near Venice Beach. We had walked over four blocks to be able to go have food at the restaurant. We were coming back from dinner, and Charles said, “What did you think of dinner?” Now, remember, I was eight years old, and it was borscht, not my favorite thing.
Lisa Kay: That’s a tall order. That is a tall order.
Llisa D: Yes. I said I didn’t like it very much. Without missing a beat, he turned to me and he said, “How would you have done things differently?” I’m so surprised. He’s like, “What would you have done with those ingredients?” He’s like, “I know you like mashed potatoes, so you could have taken the potatoes and the butter and done that. What would you do with the onions and the beets?” We’re talking about this, and I was just like, “Oh, okay,” so then I’m trying to think of all the things you make with borscht. Then the next block was, “Why was it borscht?” and we’re thinking about, “Did someone just come back from a trip? Is it someone’s favorite dish, all that’s at the farmer’s market?”
For three blocks, we have the whole story of why it was borscht that night. By the time we got back to the office-- I’m eight years old. I have to say, I felt empowered. I felt like it’s not just a great design lesson. I realized much later in my life, it was a great life lesson. Now, the story gets even better to me because I shared that story with the docents when the exhibit was at Oakland Museum, the Eames show in about 2019. One of the docents, when I went back to visit, came over to me and she said, “Llisa, your borscht story worked.” I said, “How?” She said, “Well, the next time my grandchildren complained about their salads, I said, ‘How would you do things differently?’”
She said it just opened the door to a conversation that was not so fun at that point of dinner. Instead, it was like she found out they didn’t like raw mushrooms. She’s like, “I don’t care if they eat raw mushrooms.” She was just thanking me. That’s really what we’re trying to do here at the Eames Institute of Infinite Curiosity. We really want people to look at things differently, consider different viewpoints, think about the constraints. Every list has its own list of constraints. Not compromise, but know that you have more choices.
I was looking over at the Whole Earth Catalog the whole time because I think of long now, and I think of the amazing work that you’re doing there. I think that’s another way to engage people to look at things differently, because I think it can be so paralyzing if you’re like all these challenges around where do you start? For Ray and Charles, they loved that last Whole Earth Catalog because it was a way to show people how you could live off the grid.
I don’t know if you know, but they sent each of us grandchildren a copy of it. We all needed to know this. They felt all their friends needed to know this. I have heard the receptionist had a stack by her desk. After you finished your meeting, everyone was handed like, “Okay, you need to know about this,” because there wasn’t Google. The library that we’re here, this is a reference library. It’s Google before Google. You could build it. I think we have guests now like, “Well, what did they have when they were studying geography or photography?” We’re going to be able to share that in different ways, too.
Lisa Kay: I love that. For me personally, seeing the overlap between these different worlds that I’m playing in, of course, being a part of the long now, teaching at the d.school, which is all about design as a set of practices and a process that are so analogous to what you’re doing, learning to navigate ambiguity, learning from others, people, and context, communicating deliberately, crafting intentionally, designing your design space, these are some of the things that we’re intentionally trying to get our students to incorporate into how they solve problems, how they navigate the world. Of course, now having this as part of my family.
It just feels like the overlaps are, first of all, so grounding that I’m not this solo, but wait, there’s more to see. Also, there’s fellow travelers from which to bounce ideas off of. One of my absolute favorite days besides this moment sitting here with you was having 25 designers, futurists, educators, makers here experiencing the Eames store together. I just think everyone will point to that day as a special day, not just because of the way that the exhibit was architected and the stories that you told, but because the closeness we felt with each other. We felt like we were part of something so special that we wanted to live up to.
Llisa D: Definitely. As Ray and Charles always said, they wanted to make the best for the most for the least, the best product for the most people for the least amount. What I found when the group was here, and huge fan of d.school, I feel like one of the things we’re all doing is revealing the process. I call what we’re doing here is design with a lowercase d. Then the finished is, of course, the finished chair that you see at the table, but that’s capital D.
Watching this group, who all learn in different ways, absorb in different ways what we’re doing, I thought was really important because I don’t think there’s one-- of course, there’s not one way to learn, but to see how people are absorbing it in different bits and then coming back together like, “Did you see that? What’s that over there?” “No, they didn’t do that.” “Yes, they did.” That was really fun.
Lisa Kay: I think they were also, again, making the invisible visible, putting the process on full display. One of my favorite parts out there is, of course, the great drafting drawers that open up.
Llisa D: My favorite room was the graphics room, which had these amazing drawers. I thought rainbows came from the drawers because one had Prismacolor pencils beautifully arranged, or you saw the papers that Ray and Charles were using to make the graphics. I think what’s so exciting is people are like, “Oh, I could do that at home,” or “I did do that at home. I used to do.” It reminds me to go back to that in some ways.
What’s really fun is also when guests come here is-- usually, if it’s a couple, partners, one knows a lot, and one knows very little, but the one who knew very little bought the ticket for the one who knew a lot, and now they’re going to learn about it too. There’s a part of the tours that I love, which is just giving some grounding back to what we started at the beginning of like, “These are two extraordinary people who followed what they loved and what they wanted to do to help the world, and this is how they did it.”
Lisa Kay: It’s incredible. I do think you have a true gift for telling these stories, of course, because of who you are and your background and your endless passion and curiosity and care and your willingness to be vulnerable about it. One of my favorite parts on the tour that we took was when you shared some of the letters that they sent you.
Llisa D: Oh, I know. If anyone wonders, all you have to see is the letters of encouragement to, “They love my drawings.” There was one time I made for Vitamin C a little house, and Ray so admired it, I made her one. Even to the end of her days, when she had these beautiful shelves next to her bed, there was my little Vitamin C house that I had made for her. She’s like, “Llisa, you got the scale right, and look at you trying this.” That’s how engaged they were. They never talked down to us. In fact, you’ve heard me say this, as great as they were as designers, they were more incredible as grandparents.
I got to stand on the shoulders of giants and see the view, and I just want everyone else to have that view. That’s how we’re going to take care of the world.
Lisa Kay: Oh. It’s just a reminder that taking that extra moment to pay attention, you just don’t know where that’s going to go. It feels good in the moment, and it could pay dividends down the road.
Llisa D: Absolutely. We’re planting vineyards here.
Lisa Kay: What do you think they would say, by the way, if they saw what you’ve done? What do you think they would say?
Llisa D: I can never speak for them. I would hope they would understand I’ve done the very best I can. I think it would be so fun to take them around and show the things that I learned from them and how we’re juxtaposing that today. The main thing is, for them, the only time I saw them annoyed is when someone would talk about an idea and not do it. The fact that we’re doing the idea, we’re already a few points ahead on that one. They were so sharing about whatever you were working on. I wanted to be a sculptor. My siblings wanted to do other things. They were just like, “Well, then just go do it.” That part’s really special.
Lisa Kay: I love that. It seems like that was the philosophy of their studio. Sometimes I think, particularly when there’s a big day, or I’m putting a lot of pressure on myself, I think, “Here’s what I know. Day’s going to start. Day’s going to end. Something’s going to happen. Let’s make sure it’s a something.”
Llisa D: Exactly. For them, it was like they saw a need. It was like they’re just going to chip away at that. They always quoted Richard Feynman, that great quote about find a corner and chip away at it. Once you understand that, then you start to scale up. They also said, “Only share what you understand because the professional will see right through you if you try to make it up.”
Lisa Kay: Sure. Let’s put that one in bold too.
Llisa D: [chuckles] It’s true. They weren’t afraid to ask questions. If they didn’t know something, they would ask. I think that’s really important.
Lisa Kay: Oh, my gosh. Yes. That is so much of what we’re trying to do in How We Future Too, which is to help spark agency. If you can question something from different perspectives or open up the aperture or change the time perspective, all of a sudden, it gives you different options. Just like you said, playing around with the constraints. Constraints lead to new questions. That leads to new choices. Now you have options to try.
Llisa D: Right. Then also, that is a big part of what Ray and Charles did. They also talked about looking for overlapping interest. I know you’ve seen the diagram that they created explaining their design process. What’s important there is they would have a circle of what they wanted to accomplish. The second circle was their client. There was always a third circle, society as a whole. You had to find that part that overlapped for all three.
For Ray and Charles, one of their first projects, also along with making that molded plywood chair while they’re working on that, they also designed a leg splint for the Navy. 100,000 of those were made by 1943. What was important also to Ray and Charles, it was a way to help the war effort without hurting anybody. On the tours, being able to share these stories, it’s like these aha moments, which are just my favorite.
Lisa Kay: What that great example shows is that you can find options outside the binary. “Do we help or we don’t help?” “Oh, well, how could we help in a way that’s still aligned with our values?” Again, that point of view. That serves as a design criteria for you to think about. “Are we going to take this project, yes or no? Does it meet these three needs? How would we think about that?”
Llisa D: Yes. Ray would also say-- well, I remember her saying in just a few talks. “It only takes 5% of your energy to figure out that idea that goes in there, but it takes 95% of your energy to keep it in there because it wants to go down the path of least resistance.” One of my favorite examples is Ray and Charles would talk about, when making furniture with Herman Miller and Vitra, it had to be goodness all the way down. It had to be good for the company, good for the person on the line making your furniture, good for the designer, good for the community, and good for the environment. That’s what I’m always looking for is how can things be goodness all the way down?
Lisa Kay: Oh, my gosh. I really hope everyone listening-- that is such a great question. How can it be goodness all the way down? Boy, do we need that. We will definitely put an image, a link to that iconic design, which was for an exhibit.
Llisa D: Yes. That was in 1969. There was an exhibit in Paris, and the curator, she asked all the designers and architects participating to please explain their design process. Now, I would imagine that most people wrote a few paragraphs. Ray and Charles drew that. What’s also exciting behind the scenes is we have Ray’s drawings for this too. The reason we picked this one is this is the one that they sent in and was at the office. Both Ray and Charles are collaborating on this, on how to explain their design process.
Lisa Kay: I also love in that diagram, they have almost asterisk at the bottom. What does it say?
Llisa D: The asterisk is that, “This is where the designer can work with conviction and enthusiasm.” Please note, it says that, “These circles will not stay static. They will change as each thing evolves as you pursue these ideas.” I think that’s so interesting because they’re saying that in 1969 and within another 10 years, or even five years before Charles passes, they’re talking about, really, everyone has to be comfortable with change. I’m now seeing that amplified today. As I’ve heard in many interviews that you share, everyone’s trying to move at this speed. Humans weren’t designed quite that way. How do we slow down and pay attention? That’s what I think we’re all trying to figure out.
Lisa Kay: That’s where I think design is one of the most powerful disciplines, sets of practices, processes you can learn, because, just like what you were saying earlier around Ray and Charles’ epiphany of, “We’re not going to teach people how to sit. We got to change.” We’re not going to slow the pace of change. We have to change. I think what you’re doing here is inviting more people to learn from what they did. The other thing I find so fascinating about the way that you are curating and inviting people to enjoy this space is that, yes, it’s an archive, which makes you think past, but it really is an invitation to the future.
Llisa D: Oh, yes. We are definitely about looking at the past to learn from it, but it’s to help us inform making better decisions in the future. That’s always been the goal. It’s just been great to be here at Richmond for a couple of years, where we’ve tried some different combinations, but we keep expanding. What’s interesting is the groups. Part of the reason why we have just done this recent expansion was groups wanted to come and have the experience of learning more about Ray and Charles, but then they wanted to go back and reflect together as a team, and so to have offsites. It’s really been interesting that we are now trying this out, and it’s very exciting.
Lisa Kay: Well, I can say, firsthand, I have brought a number of groups here, and it has never failed to amaze and to spark very different conversations, very different questions, very different wonderments about what’s possible. It’s just, what do I say? Goodness all the way down.
Llisa D: Goodness all the way down. Excellent. We’re doing our job.
Lisa Kay: Goodness all the way down. All right. There’s a few more projects I want to talk about, and then I want to talk a little bit about the future. I would love for you to share the collaboration they did with IBM for the World Fair.
Llisa D: The relationship with IBM began in the late ‘40s, early ‘50s, and it was really interesting conversations they were having with IBM because IBM was trying to show how computers can help, but also there was a certain fear or there was a certain concern about what these computers could do. Back to Ray and Charles saying that toys are preludes to serious ideas, one of the things they did is if the people are afraid of what’s going on inside the machine, well, then let’s open up the doors and take pictures, show that it’s circuit boards, it’s not smoke or mirrors or anything like that.
There’s always another component. There was always a little brochure for the IBM Computer House of Cards that explained what those computers were and what they did, also what you could build with this House of Cards. It was very disarming and a really fun way to engage.
They also, when they were getting ready for the World’s Fair, were thinking about how to show how computers can help solve problems, created Think, which is a multi-screen presentation, I think it’s 22 screens, and they made an analogy showing the way you solve how to have a dinner party is the same way we’re going to just be doing larger problems in solving city, urban issues, transportation issues. The list was endless. Again, making computers approachable was always the goal.
Lisa Kay: It shows so much empathy for people that might feel nervous about something new in that way. I love what you see in the exhibit is that they also took a circuit board and they make it huge to really invite people to understand like we’re not trying to hide anything and it’s colorful, and it’s bright, and it’s inviting.
Llisa D: Right. Oh, you’re reminding me. Ray and Charles, while working with IBM, this is probably like the late 1950s because they’re working on so many projects at the same time, IBM was asked to make a large donation to a new science museum in Los Angeles. They said, “We’d rather give you an exhibit by Ray and Charles Eames.” Now, Ray and Charles had never done an exhibit before, so whenever they hadn’t done something before, they always looked at what already had been done. It really was a belief that nothing happens in a void.
They went to science museums across the country to see what the most popular exhibit was because that would be their competition. Do you know what it was? It’s when baby chicks are hatching out of an egg. They said, “Whatever we design has to be more entertaining than a baby chick hatches out of an egg.” The other thing is they did deep research into exhibits. They realized quickly there’s no way you can show everything on a subject. I can’t show you everything my grandparents did, but what you do is focus on maybe 10 to 12 things that get someone excited to want to do their own research.
That’s what we’re also trying to do here, that somebody wants to know more about a Ray painting or somebody else wants to know about the toy boxes or whatever it is. What was exciting is, when it did open in 1961, it was so successful that IBM asked for two more sets to be made by the ‘64 World’s Fair. Today, they are actually in New York, Boston, at the Henry Ford. It’s still exciting generations of mathematicians and scientists.
Lisa Kay: I think that there’s a lot to be learned about this moment where the change feels scary because we don’t know. Sometimes what I heard in that is like, “Let’s slow down. Let’s try to understand where the resistance is coming from. Let’s lean into it, and let’s see if we can take down some of that fear by inviting people to better understand what’s really happening.”
Llisa D: Exactly. They found such wonderful ways to do that. It’s called a magic square. It shows that the columns and the rows are adding up to the same number. They found these really wonderful ways to engage people, to see the wonders of math.
Lisa Kay: Incredible. Just again showing the vastness of their work, so working on chairs, working with IBM, working on logos. I don’t know who initially asked them, worked on a summit with the Soviet Union following--
Llisa D: Oh, yes. Also around this time, yes, there was going to be an exhibit in Moscow showing consumer goods being produced in America to those living in Russia. There was a moment where they were asked to show what life in America was like to those living in Russia. There was a huge curiosity to it. That was a big moment. Ray and Charles had a choice of bridging a communication gap or polarizing. What they chose was actually to show they’re very similar. “You have mountains, we have mountains. You have cloverleaf overpasses, we do too.”
What’s interesting is they actually have seven screens to show this. It was in a Bucky Fuller dome where the venue was. What was great is, by having seven screens, you’re actually showing the vastness of the United States without saying it. It was a wonderful way to bridge that. What they said was that our cities look much the same at night from the stars. The thing, though, Ray and Charles always said with the multi-screen presentation, the hardest part is how do you end it? “What is the finial at the end of the staircase?” is what they would say.
They’re thinking about it, and they’re thinking about it. Then finally, Ray comes up with this wonderful idea. They ended it with a forget-me-not flowers. That’s where our guests see when they go through the gallery. It means the same thing in both countries. It was a beautiful way to end the multi-screen show.
Lisa Kay: Oh, my gosh. Incredible. I think that’s yet another micro lesson that we can apply. How do we end things?
Llisa D: Yes.
Lisa Kay: Again, you’re making me think of-- I can’t believe I’m making this analogy. It’s so bold. In Moments of Impact, the book about designing conversations, we often talk about people think about the agenda, and they think about the details. They don’t think about where things are going to end, because the conversation, if it goes well, means you’ve had another conversation, another opportunity. Really paying attention to what is the final moment. That’s what they think about when they go home.
Llisa D: It’s such a great point that you’re making because that’s also something that we’re thinking at the future museum, is actually, we want people to have even more questions and asking what if, how so, and juxtaposing a painting that might be next to a scale model. It’s about problem-solving. This is just such an exciting opportunity that you’ll be seeing us in the next couple of years prototyping some of these ideas as we ladder up to this next new space.
Lisa Kay: Llisa, that is such a good segue. Tell us about this next new space. What is unfolding?
Llisa D: What’s unfolding is really the way we started with the institute was taking care of this collection that my mother inherited. That’s been fantastic, and love doing that. This opportunity when the former Birkenstock Campus, for those of you who know Novato, became available, this was a chance to scale up this idea even more. It’s like 120,000 square feet in the main warehouse and another 40,000 in the pavilion behind it. It’s an extraordinary structure that I had driven past for 30 years. John, our incredible CEO, also had driven past these last eight years that we’ve been working together. It was like this wish, like, “Oh, wouldn’t that be incredible?”
He looked into the opportunities. Finally, when it came on the market earlier last year, we just seized upon it and became the new owners, new stewards. Just August of last year, so less than a year. Really, what this is, a chance is bring people in, again, back to this very digital world to be able to come into these spaces. It’s a vast, beautiful open space. We’re working with Herzog and de Meuron, who are world-class museum designers, who both have built museums from the bottom up, to also taking care of an existing building and using it in new ways, in very thoughtful ways.
There was this great moment that my mom used to say. My mom, when I was growing up, used to talk about-- she’d be asked, and I saw this in interviews, what it was like to live at the Eames House. She said, “I didn’t live at the Eames House the way you thought I did.” She’d tell the interviewer, because she said, “I was 16 when they ordered the parts and 19 off getting married by the time they got them.” Because the parts hadn’t arrived, they ended up spending time with picnics and shooting archery and all of that for a couple of years.
What Ray and Charles quickly realized was their favorite part of the property was the meadow. The original design of the building was to plant itself right there. Ray was saying, “We’re going to make the classic architect’s mistake. How can we design our way out of this?” Mom got to see them over a few months, figure out they could rotate it, set into the hillside, and you got to have a meadow and a house. I feel like we’re getting this experience building up because we’re not even putting shovels in the ground until 2027, but the goal is to be open by 2030.
We’re really looking at the spaces different times of year, also the way the light comes in. Thinking about all these ways to keep this beautiful character of the building, but also create spaces to have the archival material too.
Lisa Kay: Again, it feels like you’re taking some of the legacy respect for the environment, for the earth, and you’re bringing that forward in such a beautiful way and really allowing the space to invite you to think differently about what can go there. As you’re talking, Llisa, I can’t help but think it is like the antidote to what, unfortunately, Silicon Valley is getting known for in the Bay Area of move fast and break things. You’re like, “Let’s move slow and honor what’s here.”
Llisa D: Yes. Let’s let it evolve. “Innovate is the last resort,” was one way they put it. I think the main thing is also-- I want people to feel more empowered that there are ways to look at situations. That’s something that I get from the other interviews that you do is like, “Oh, wow, that’s so interesting.” They were working on this project, and then they collaborated over here, and that led to this. Who knew?
Lisa Kay: Again, speaking to the power of curiosity and allowing enough space. It’s not only that you are building these gorgeous spaces here that I really hope the Bay Area becomes known for, not just the technology, but for, “Oh, we have to go to the Bay Area because we have to visit the Eames Institute of Infinite Curiosity.” That’s a future I’m holding, and I’m going to hold, and I’m going to work towards. You’re also empowering community. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about The Curious 100, which you started last year.
Llisa D: The Curious 100 is a wonderful list, and I’m so thrilled you’re on it. Basically, over the years, I’m often asked who are designers and architects and makers today, really making, working today in the spirit of Ray and Charles, and really looking at problems and ways to solve them in unexpected ways, who have boundless curiosity. There’s four of us who work together. People mail in recommendations for this. It was really a chance to think about how we can connect in different ways as builders, as reforming something. It helped us figure out there’s 10 categories, there’s 10 in each category.
We were just so excited that our first event, even before we’ve opened, is to bring you all together and watch those conversations happen. The results, we already are so excited that people are just like, “That was amazing.” There was somebody who said something fabulous like, “This was the family I didn’t know I had,” or something. It was so special that evening, but that’s what we’re doing.
Lisa Kay: It was so special. This is the one I couldn’t memorize, but I love the 10 categories: builders, caretakers, connectors, creators, curators, explorers, makers, protectors, reformers, and storytellers.
Llisa D: Yes. You know what’s the truth about? Just like how we talked about with Ray and Charles, their life and their work, all of you who are on that list could also probably be in more than one category. That’s another thing that we noticed. We thought the categories were just a starting point. Also, we really focused on so anybody can learn more, Instagram to follow or whatever, so people could connect with each other. I feel like what we’re doing is-- it’s like what that saying is, lift all boats. We want everything to rise.
We loved having those conversations. There’s many people that want to do projects with us. It’s exciting having listened to your podcast to be able to be part of it. It’s just this extraordinary group. I do love having that hope for the future of bringing these groups of people together. We’re going to be doing more things like this.
Lisa Kay: You’re giving an opportunity for people to know who they are, to know their stories, and to feel like there’s a place to go when they get lost. That’s the thing that I think is so powerful in this moment, where it could feel so overwhelming. You’re like, “Wait, let me just learn what this sound architect is doing or this wonderful colorist that is using her gift and love of color to create gorgeous murals at city schools.”
Llisa D: Laura Guido-Clark, she’s amazing with Project Color Corps. That’s exactly the kind of thing. I think the other thing, though, The Curious 100, everyone is so accomplished. It’s not like somebody who’s just talking about an idea. You can actually see the work that they’ve delivered and how that’s leading to another work or something. Really, this was a national group. I think some people are like, “Oh, I knew that person,” or “I listened to that person.” I think we can learn from each other of how to spread this message of hope and design as a way to solve problems.
Lisa Kay: When I first heard about it last year, before I had the honor of joining this year, I felt like I want every school to have their Curious 100. Just really, the fact that that list exists gives me hope and inspiration, and that we can learn to honor it because it’s often invisible, or even worse, particularly when I think students are younger, it’s often punished. When you’re curious, you’re taking the teacher off the path of getting to the end of the lesson, versus saying, “I’m so glad you asked that divergent question, and now I need to go on an off-road adventure to figure out how to solve that.” That’s exactly what we need.
Llisa D: It is. I think things are unscripted. I think Ray and Charles had this incredible trust of finding what you like to do and work on that. Also, just be curious. Just ask questions. For me, it’s always to be inclusive also. Those who want to know more, I hope they come and visit us.
Lisa Kay: Well, Llisa, I, again, thank you so much for taking this time. Thank you for everything you are doing, for building this space, for making it so inviting. I wonder if there’s a final thought that you want to share as we close out our conversation together.
Llisa D: There’s a wonderful story that was said by someone who formerly worked at the office. She was packing up her bag and getting ready to go. It was her last day, and so she’s just a little nervous, a little sad going. Charles walked over to her desk, and he said, “Whatever you do, please keep up the quality.” I ask all of you and your guests, whatever you do, please keep up the quality.
Lisa Kay: We sure will try. Thank you for modeling what quality looks like. Thank you so much.
Llisa D: Thank you so much. It’s such a treat to be here. I just hope people ask more questions and be curious. Thank you.
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