Equality is giving everyone a box. Equity is giving the shortest person two.

Nick Howe has spent nearly 25 years working with businesses — and the clearest thing he’ll tell you is that the system doesn’t start everyone from the same line. His work at NatWest focuses on identifying and supporting underrepresented communities: women in business, ethnic minority founders, young entrepreneurs, and those launching social enterprises.

In this episode, Shelley and Graham speak with Nick about what that work actually looks like, what he’s learned from thousands of conversations with founders, and what the difference between equity and equality means in practice. His fence analogy is the clearest version of that distinction we’ve heard.

He’s also refreshingly direct about the mistakes well-meaning organisations make when they try to support underrepresented groups. The biggest one: arriving with assumptions about what those groups need, rather than listening first. His advice — shut up and listen — sounds simple. It’s harder to consistently do than most people realise.

His tips for aspiring founders are grounded in the same principle: don’t fall in love with your solution, fall in love with your customer’s problem. Validate before you plan. Test before you scale. Get comfortable being uncomfortable — it’s not a temporary phase of starting a business, it’s the job.

Worth 17 minutes if you work in inclusion, work with founders, or are thinking about starting something yourself.