Agile Development

[00:00:05] Nathan Wrigley: Hello there. And welcome to the No Script Show.

In this episode, we're looking at inclusive design, what it is, why it matters, its core principles, and how we can apply them. You can find our show notes and resources at no script show slash 31. That's the numbers three one. And if you're watching this on YouTube, the link will be in the first comment just below the subscribe and like buttons.

And as always, I'm joined by David. Hello David. He's the one that does all the work. I just show up genuinely. I just show up and talk. he does all the hard work, makes the slides, does the research, thinks about everything, makes the website. Bravo. David,

[00:00:44] David Waumsley: thank you. yeah, this one, hopefully this is gonna be quick, because we're just covering, The five pillars of this, website owners manual, which I started doing, which is eagerly awaited by absolutely no one but me. Oh, and I'll bring it up actually for those who can see it on the YouTubes, if I can get my screen working Okay there. So yes, on this website owner's manual and the preface of that, I've got these sort of standards, which is how we're going to build sites in the future, and it's got these, five pillars.

And we covered one last week and we covered, which was content design. We covered, the indie web and today we're looking at exclusive design. And I've put this one, number one as the sort of priority because I think it sums up that the whole concept of inclusive design really the real unique, strength of the web as a medium.

offline, if you wanted to reach everyone, there's a significant cost. so if you have a physical location, installing ramps or something for wheelchair access, or if you, need translation services to account for other people's languages or printing out some of your materials, you might have to do that in braille.

That's expensive online. And I think this is the real beauty of online is that much of it is just free just for following a few standards. And I think, it's good to get back to I think the basics here because really for the last 30 odd nearly 40 years, really the whole industry has ignored the, this key thing about the web is the fact that it can reach everybody and include everybody quite cheaply.

when we started, with, table based designs because we wanted things to look pretty, but that really threw out the ability for screen readers to be able to read the content that was there. And right through to now we have many of the page builders that we're using really don't do a great job on putting over the HTML.

In a way that it means that, we can use services to translate it into other languages and that screen readers can read them and that kind of stuff. So I'm gonna hand it back over to you after that on spi. Yeah,

[00:03:11] Nathan Wrigley: I have a few comments about that. And the, first one is that the, the legislation in the physical world started to, ramp up to coin a phrase, quite a long time ago.

And you couldn't get away with it. So certainly in the uk, things like accessibility for, toilets and the capacity to get into a shop, over the initial steps or whatever there may be, you have to put ramps in and lifts or elevators, those kind of things. And I suppose the curious thing about that is, it's really obvious because there you are in the physical world and you're about to enter the post office and there's somebody in a wheelchair that can't get into the post office and you can see it.

It's right there. You see the, the injustice of that situation before your eyes, the web, which is becoming an increasingly important part of everybody's lives, with banking and tax filling and all of that, more or less required now online. Nobody's standing over your shoulder. Most of the time you're doing it in the privacy of your own home.

And even if they were sat next to you watching you browse the web, they wouldn't see the, problems that you are having. they might see the frustration on your face, but it's all very private, isn't it? And so I think this whole thing about 30 years on the industry hasn't really caught up. I think it's a ba basically because there's been no legislation, which is changing, but b, because the, inconvenience, it can be invisible.

It can be not seen by anybody. So anyway, there's my 2 cents. yeah,

[00:04:49] David Waumsley: no, I think it's a really good point. And I think, but it's even in with web standards themselves. they've not been particularly inclusive until recently. We've only recently have we really considered other languages when we're writing the htm l the, fact that we now, able to, in fact, we've rewritten CSS so it's no longer fixed to its dimensions, so we can actually do it, so we can code it.

So if someone's, using a, right to left language or vertical language, the design can adapt to it. But that's a really very recent thing. Anyway, I will move on to the next slide and I'll let you read that. the main points on this, if I can do this site. Okay.

[00:05:32] Nathan Wrigley: I just, that's alright. See if you can find it.

Here we go. There, Okay. So here are some four bullet points, related to inclusive design.

Inclusive design is an approach that aims to make product, services and content usable and welcoming for as many different people as possible across ages, backgrounds, abilities, and context.

It goes beyond minimum accessibility, compliance to actively look for who might be excluded and to remove or reduce those barriers. It assumes diversity as the default, not the edge case, and is an ongoing mindset, not a one-off checklist. It has been adopted by many global corporations, government bodies.

And nonprofits. I think the one that resonates most there for me is number three. But over to you, David, to give us your commentary. Yeah, again, I'll just take the last point actually about the fact that many global corporations and government bodies, and nonprofits, take inclusive design seriously.

[00:06:29] David Waumsley: And in a way I think it's the kind of likes of you and I who, have to make sites for clients who don't have the time to, to really do this kind of work that needs to be done on there. Because you'll find, with big tech, there's Microsoft, they've published their principles as well. You can find that at inclusive Microsoft do design.

Google has a process for it called product inclusion. And Apple, they've integrated accessibility features like voiceover and assistant, touch tech, technology directly into their operating systems. So they're really on the ball and they make a lot of money out of it. That's the reason why they're going to do it, isn't it?

Because the more people you can reach, Yeah. The more money they're gonna make. I think, all of it really goes beyond, exclusion. I think it's quite interesting when you think about, inclusive design and why it's useful because if you just take this recording that we're doing at the moment, so YouTube is going to take our words and turn those into closed captions.

It's gonna literally read those. Now that might, that sort of benefit there might primarily be there for people who are deaf, but it's also gonna help anybody who's in a noisy environment, it's gonna help people with a temporary ear infection. And it might just help anybody who wants to listen to this without letting other people know that they are listening to us as well.

Very sensible. Yeah. So I think, a lot of this with the inclusive design is, there's a term, actually we mentioned these before, gov uk, and they're government digital services, they refer to, this kind of inclusive as solve for one and extend to many. oh, nice. Yeah. If you put something in like those closed captions, not only does it benefit those people who would be excluded otherwise from it, but actually everybody gets those sort of benefits.

it's not something that's just for a particular fixed group of people who it helps with that. I think the interesting thing from the little bit that you just said there is the three examples that you gave are these giant corporations that are swimming. In excess cash.

[00:08:52] Nathan Wrigley: And so them being able to create these incredible technologies. So in the example of YouTube, I don't even know what the turnover for that platform is, but it's eye watering. I'm sure that feels like such a brilliant cog that they can turn to make things available to people who, I don't know, are hard of hearing.

Let's go with that. and it probably costs them pennies per video. maybe in some situations if they examined every video that they've got on there, the calculus doesn't work. hardly anybody's looking at the closed captions and what have you. But like you said, solve for one, export to many or whatever the phrase was.

[00:09:35] David Waumsley: Yeah, that's, it's amazing that those platforms can do that. But the burden for, for the audience for this podcast is people who don't have that, excess of cash. there's probably a bit of nickel and dimming, living from paycheck to paycheck, building websites, trying to, yeah, trying to just make a living out of it.

[00:09:57] Nathan Wrigley: And so those calculations are a little bit more difficult to justify, making everything accessible and doing that extra work. We're at that point where perhaps that's still being neglected because it takes that extra time and that extra expertise and so on. So there's not really any sort of question there or indeed insight, but it's just, I think, worth pointing out.

[00:10:19] David Waumsley: Yeah. No, and I think it's good I didn't put this in the notes, so it just crossed my mind as you were saying it is the fact that you, I do notice, 'cause I'm still in builder, page builder communities and stuff that when a lot of accessibility, law came out, there was a lot of people going, oh gosh, it's just one more thing we have to do to to abide by what the eu 'cause it's EU regulations that are coming up.

Yeah. Particularly with Americans who use page builders. and I think really where I've got to is that's exactly how I'd feel like gotta add in some extra work to the page builder stuff I've done to make it work. But now you're getting back to the basics again. You just think, if we'd just done it properly in the first place With decent code, we wouldn't be in that situation at the moment. and I think that's where we're going with this. If you just build them with the right mindset instead of just primarily being worried about what on the screen and think about what you are communicating in the code, in the basic html, there is so much to be gained by doing that.

So that, yeah. I guess if you're in the business of retrofitting things and that's, that takes, I don't know, two days or three days or whatever it may be, that seems like a burden. But if each time you add some semantic element to the HTML, you do the four second edition at that moment, that burden is spread out over the entire build and prop, you maybe would never notice it.

[00:11:51] Nathan Wrigley: In fact, that's interesting. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. let's, I'll put on the next slide for you to read, a little look at sort of the history and I'm sorry, I'm struggling with my slides. Here we go. That's okay. Here we go. So this is the historical evolution. Shall I just read these into the record? Yeah, please.

Yeah. so this is fascinating actually. And much of this I didn't know until I caught sight of this slide. So going back right to the 1950s though, the 1950s to the 1960s, barrier free design. So this was the idea of removing physical obstacles to help disabled World War II veterans. The, that's really interesting that the world was suddenly, more full, let's say, with people who were struggling to move about.

And so things started to happen because of that. And then we move on to the 1970s, the social model of disability. This was an era which challenged the medical model, which viewed disability as something to be cured. Instead, advocates argued that people are disabled by a society that fails to accommodate their needs.

That is so profoundly interesting. Moving on to the 1980s. universal design. This aimed for a single one size fits all solution that works for everybody without needing adaptation. And then the last point on this slide, 1990s onwards, so we're into the era of what we're talking about today, inclusive design.

This acknowledges that multiple variations may need to be truly, sorry, may need be needed to truly include everybody. what a whole turning the ship scenario. This is go one direction, then go in another direction, but also the real world challenges that made that all possible. That's really interesting.

[00:13:35] David Waumsley: Yeah. I think our modern world all starts from, second world war where we, people had more than they ever had before in terms of, democracy and, things that are available to them. But yeah, I've got some notes. I'm just gonna, that, I'll just add some extra details.

So the inclusive design was popularised by Roger Coleman and his colleagues at the Royal College of Art in the uk and Universal Design, came from the us. so that's going back to the eighties there by an architect, product designer, an educator, Ron Mays, who coined that term there. And that's the one that I you know, that's the period that I grew up where was that was the whole thing.

You made everything so it would work for everybody now. And I think where you get into the inclusive design is that earlier point that we mentioned where was saying that if you, add one thing extra for a group of people, then every, everybody gets to benefit from it. So it's that may just shift there, I think.

Yeah. Yeah. a lot of what we do is universal anyway, so it is, but I just find that, anyway, I just put that slide in because I just thought it was interesting how we gradually, move forward. you could say at the moment while we're recording this, we've gone in the opposite direction where we're might is, right?

And we're, less inclusive I think at the moment of this. But, the only thing I would add is that if you were to look at that slide in a hundred years time, there would no doubt be other bullet points that have been added as the future will definitely be not the same as the present for sure.

[00:15:19] Nathan Wrigley: There'll be different interpretations and things tend to swing in different directions, but the, hopefully the thread running through it is that, the idea is that you make it easy for everybody given whatever situation they're in. But anyway, yeah. Yeah, and it just makes good, even in a capitalist society, you would still expect, obviously that's why Google and Microsoft and obviously are on board with this because it actually works.

[00:15:45] David Waumsley: anyway, I'll move on to the next slide for you to read out. okay, so this is, getting to the underpinnings of what's the point really? So why does it matter? Why it matters? Four bullet points here. Designing inclusively strengthens brands by making it easier for more people to find, use and trust what we offer.

[00:16:06] Nathan Wrigley: It also supports our ethical commitments, reduces legal and reputational risk. It often improves the experience for everybody, not just people with specific access needs. And start with a competitive edge. 95% don't even manage basic accessibility. Gosh, there's a lot in there, isn't there? Some of it more moral, some of it more carrot and stick, let's put it that way.

Some of it more moral and some of it more legal in nature. Yeah, we've covered before about the fact that, every time there's, accessibility, surveys done, they really come out with still in the sort of, in the 90%. it starts to increase, but very basic accessibility is just not done, and, and it is a case of nothing that's an extra cost, it's simply just picking the right colours in the first place so everybody can see that and, just marking things up as they should be marked up rather than just forgetting about it and just concentrating on the visuals.

[00:17:09] David Waumsley: So the really easy fix to make in short, really, the summary of this is it just makes better products and services and yeah. if you are into that, it's gonna make you more money for doing that. yeah. calculus is pretty straightforward, isn't it, when you look at it like that?

[00:17:23] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. Yeah, so it, we just only have to start with, semantic accessible HTML in the first place, and we're going to, by default, we're going to get better SEO, we're going to reach more people. let me just have a quick. you've got some downsides listed 'cause we've only ever mentioned the benefits here, haven't you?

But, you haven't got downsides listed, but you were saying are there downsides? yeah, this, I don't, I don't think there are any downsides in other accommodating, apart from the fact that you might have to start with some of the basics. one thing I suppose that I put in my notes here is that accessibility experts, are often reminding us that disability in some form or another touches nearly everybody's life at some point.

[00:18:15] David Waumsley: so we are so used to the fact of thinking about accessibility of a group of disabled people who we have to accommodate and do all this extra work for, but in reality it's not, and you realise it as you get older. I'm noticing it all the time. Oh, I have to enlarge my text so much more and that means that somebody needed to design their website so I could enlarge it on my browser, Yeah. But people have accidents, all the time. You had an operation, didn't you? yeah. Yeah. affected you for some time. So it's just all those kind of things and it's all the temper, accessibility, the experts will like to point to the fact that there'll just be situational, events where there may be a parent holding a child who only has one hand free to be able to manipulate the internet, so there will be needing to use tabbing.

And so often, because we don't test in that way, we tend to just use our mouse on the way that we typically do. We don't test whether our tab in order is correct on every page, which can just throw somebody out. So it's so interesting that, and how obvious some of these problems are when you have that little, in my case, I've had a very, straightforward life, let's put it that way.

[00:19:36] Nathan Wrigley: But I have these little moments where, like you said, you have a bit of surgery and for a period of time, normal is no longer normal, and things are different, and you suddenly encounter all these problems and the amount of totting and, moral outrage that I would, I would have, whereas before I would be completely oblivious to it was fairly profound.

And, yeah, you suddenly notice, oh, that's why is it? so yeah. but you're right. you break an arm, you break a leg, you have to carry an object. You, I don't know, you're temporarily unwell. All of these things fall into this category. So it's not necessarily just for, people who have conditions that are permanent, although I think the moral calculus is that they're probably the target audience.

[00:20:24] David Waumsley: Yeah, we, you don't want to lose the fact that there is an important political group out there who needs to be voiced as well. But, yeah, certainly we're all growing older as well, so it's more likely that we do need our internet to serve us better in that way. Do you know what I was just thinking about this.

I think I only ever once had a client who said to me, on a page where I had a form that my tab in order was all wrong. And, oh, and I just wonder, it was quite late into doing this. 'cause I obviously wasn't testing myself, so I, it just makes me wonder how many forms I created in the past where the tabbing was completely out until yeah.

Took a client to tell me. Terrible. Really. and the curious problem there is that, and this is such a compounding problem, the capacity to report the problem is potentially through something like a form. So where we're funnelling people who have these problems into platforms, which they have to overcome the very same problems in order to report the problems.

[00:21:35] Nathan Wrigley: You can see where this is going. The, the infrastructure to report complaints is often the same infrastructure that they're complaining about. Yes. And that's that. Can you imagine how frustrating that would be? I dunno, you wanna report a form not working, but the form you need to use to report the form is also not working in that way.

And, on it goes, you can imagine that writ large across almost every aspect of the internet, navigation to find the form that you need to fill out and yada on it goes. It's, yeah. that must be extremely infuriating. And I expect probably, a lot of dead ends. I find it very hard.

Let's say for example, I'm on my insurance website and I wish to cancel my policy. That is hard enough. Just being able to scan that with my eyes. I have no idea how somebody with a screen reader would finally navigate to that final button and go through the nine different pages that you've got to figure out which button am I pressing, which is the correct one to proceed here.

All of that must be just so unbelievably infuriating. Anyway, I'll get off my pedestal now. that's my, no, all good points. That's my thoughts on that. I've got another slide for you. okay. And I find it. There we go. Core principles, I think is what you're looking for. There we go. Yeah. okay, let's list out the five core principles.

They are, equity, flexibility, clarity, tolerance for error, and participation. Starting with equity, people with different abilities or context can complete key tasks with similar ease and dignity. Ooh, that's an interesting last word, isn't it? Dignity. Wow. flexibility interfaces work with different input methods, preferences and assistive technologies.

Clarity, content and controls are simple, well structured and easy to perceive. For example, pleasant contrast, clear hierarchy and plain language tolerance for error. The experience helps people to avoid mistakes and recover easily when they happen and participation. Finally, we seek feedback from a diverse range of users and iterate based on what we learn over to you.

[00:23:47] David Waumsley: Yeah, nothing to say on this. apart from the fact that you pointed out that word, dignity, it's a great word. Respect and dignity. for all. Imagine that today, and it is the bedrock of so much, isn't it? it's the sort of thing we carry around and often we don't show it, but it really is the basis of all sorts of levels of happiness.

[00:24:08] Nathan Wrigley: if you don't feel, that you have dignity. I think so much collapses on the inside and we present this interface, the internet, where that dignity is just shattered over and over again, day in, day out, minute by minute. And it must be some somewhat soul destroying, and this wonderful technology, which in theory could have enabled everything to happen suddenly becomes shut off.

Frustrating. And that whole internet, ah, I'm just not bothering, and what a shame that is. Yeah, indeed. Yeah. I'm gonna move on to the next slide, and leave it to you. So here we're looking then at how website owners apply this, so I'll just read through them again. the way to apply this is, for example, to use concise language and explain jargon when it's unavoidable.

Use meaningful headings lists and descriptive link text check actions can be completed with a keyboard and are announced to assistive technologies, alt text for images that convey their purpose. Avoid relying on colour and maintain sufficient colour contrast. Choose imagery and examples that reflect a variety of people in situations without tokenism.

[00:25:18] David Waumsley: Okay. Yeah, over to you. there's nothing new here. I guess we've probably talked about all of these things at some point. I think. why, because obviously we're in a time where everybody, particularly with the EU law coming into effect last year, 2025, where if you are serving people in the eu, you have to abide, particularly if you are earning, more than 2 million or you have 10 employees, you have to abide and bring things up to the work kind standard.

I think it's, 2.1 or whatever. so everybody's aware of this, but this is a bit more rounded than this one because there are a few things, the, particularly the things that reflect in a variety of people without tokenism, in those lists of things there and things like, language as well.

These aren't covered in accessibility. And I think the interesting thing about that is, is the fact that also what we're going to find is W CAG is changing as well. The yeah, there set of rules, which we have to apply presently, but they're moving towards a version three of the web content accessibility guidelines for those, we dunno what w CAG is, where it is going to be a little bit less rules based.

It's going to be about looking at the totality to, can't say that word Total totality. Totality, yeah. That's it of, of the experience, if you like, rather than, specific rules that you will break with it. it's gonna be quite a shift in that. I think, with all of this, I'm tempted to have a bit of a rant about AI as I often am, I could see in the notes there was that you were definitely swerving in that direction.

[00:27:10] Nathan Wrigley: Go on, do it. it's just, I think I might do later. I bought another note in there I couldn't resist. But, but yeah, we moved towards that where, we shouldn't be letting AI do our HTML. It's the thing, it's our cont content and how we market up and how we want it to be interpreted by us to other human beings.

[00:27:36] David Waumsley: And I think, That's really what we have to get back to with the inclusive design, where we're creating this for other people with respect and dignity. And I think this is always the thing that we're trying to get across with this over, over and above the legal things that we have to cover with accessibility.

I think it would also cover when we're looking at, inclusive design will be avoiding the thing of that I think you were alluding to before with sort of dark patterns. You were talking about trying to, cancel your insurance or something, and it might be nine pages or something like that.

These are often purposeful, dark patterns, aren't they? To Yeah. Stop, prevent somebody doing what they wanted to do in order to keep them on longer and make more money out of them. So I think, this is also included in this. It's something that we want to avoid all the time, keep that kind of respect for people as we're doing stuff.

[00:28:31] Nathan Wrigley: yeah, you would hope that there would be some sort of self-correction mechanism, but that doesn't seem to be the case. companies employing these deceptive designs seem to thrive. Unfortunately. I wish it were not the case. I wish that people would, express their fury and these things would go away, but sadly it seems to be reasonably effective.

So they keep them in. the w the worst of them is airline booking, airline tickets. you've got, you've paid for your ticket, you think, and then what's going on here? you've got this 17 pages of cars and insurance and hotels and confirmation of seats and all of this, and never quite know whether I've succeeded.

Yeah. Book a ticket. Anyway, I digress. But yeah. Yeah. But it's a, it's a real key thing because it's such short term thinking, isn't it? Because it works for a little while. People can't cancel things that they want to cancel, so you make more money. But in the long run, everybody gets so tired of it that, you are you're no longer considered a company that people want to deal with.

[00:29:41] David Waumsley: Eventually you might make a lot of money in the short term, but eventually, it spoils it for everyone. and interestingly, despite the fact that the internet's been around for a while, we still are a bit of wild west mentality. Yeah. And it's still an emerging technology, so I know you've been able to book flights for a while.

[00:30:00] Nathan Wrigley: I, I also know that a lot of people still use the telephone and, contact a travel agent to avoid all of that kind of stuff. But it, I, what I'm trying to say is I think the jury's still out with this sort of stuff. Maybe in a decade we really will have grown weary about them and things like the airline industry and the.

Insurance industry and whichever industry is employing these deceptive designs, maybe they will wake up to that and realise that quick buck is actually, something that the longevity of the company in into decades and, multiple decades might be affected by that. but at the moment, profiteering seems to come before anything.

but maybe that will change. Yeah, there was another note that I put in here because I think when you read through that list that you did first there about how you can apply it, and most people might look at that and go, that's just a list of things that come under accessibility. And I think probably one of the key things that the web industry seems to be learning at the moment is that about this particular medium is that, the skill sets themselves can't work in silos.

[00:31:08] David Waumsley: So we were talking last time about the, that being the point of content design. The fact that content isn't written first and then designed second, both have to happen at the same time. And I think that's the case with all of this, design that we're realising, that we all the skills need to come together, we need to work together.

that's the whole thing about agile as well, which we'll talk about as a separate thing. They all interconnect this idea that you work on a ongoing basis with, multiple skills at the same time to constantly keep improving and making a website better. And I think this kind of fits into that whole thinking.

Does that make sense? yeah, that does make sense. That makes perfect sense. But again, time will tell what Yeah, it will. Let me move on to another slide, shall I? Okay, sure. And we're on to designers, I think. yeah. How a designer, might apply this. I'll just read them through again. So inclusive about patterns, most exclusion happens through common patterns.

[00:32:14] Nathan Wrigley: For example, navigation menus, dialogues, forms, carousels, et cetera, which are implemented badly. They start from semantics and HTML, not from visuals designed for variance. Not the average user. For example, hand injury, noisy train, cracked screen. Oh, cracked screen. That's an interesting one. test with assistive tech and real people and bake it into the process, not just audits at the end.

That, that's number, the last one there, the number five. That's how I would've always handled it. Just some sort of audit at the end. and like I alluded to earlier, or you alluded to, if it's like a 22nd task repeated hundreds of times, that's, that feels much nicer than the three day headache at the end, where you've then got to go back and rebuild everything, which is probably gonna take more like six days or 10 days.

But that's quite a shift. That is quite a shift getting into that pattern. And I'm doing all of those other four things that you've got. In front of you, especially when the tools that we're using page builders in the WordPress space, for example, just drop this stuff in a handy one click, easy way to do it with no necess necessarily.

No way to understand how that's been implemented badly. yeah. Yeah. And I think, the last point back into the process, and that's why I think it links in with Agile. And that's generally the way, we used to have a sort of waterfall process that we would follow, where we would have an idea, something would get signed off as a visual on our website.

[00:33:49] David Waumsley: Someone would go away and then you would do a checklist to check everything's working, and then out it would go, we're agile. We bring in a small group of different skills that keep the focus on what we're trying to do all the time, and we keep adding to incrementally improving the product that we're doing.

And I think that's why this kind of links in with that, and we'll talk about that, I think, separately. But yeah, it's interesting because most of the things we don't even consider, the crack screen and stuff like that where we're trying to think about all the different situations that someone could find themselves in trying to access the web and think about them as we're going through the process.

there is a good book, often mentioned this fellow, Hayden Pickering, he's written. Yeah. You, he gets a lot of attention, doesn't he? From He does, yeah. He's a really, a serious thinker on this. He's wrote a book, which I have, called Inclusive Components, and he walks through for those on the technical side, some of the common, UI patterns that you'll have.

So accordion's menus, tall tip sliders, all that kind of stuff. it will talk about the code, about how you can do this in a, an inclusive manner, and try and make it as bulletproof as possible. In fact, one of the things, it is still unsolved because, there is no HTML for the card, and we talk about cards Oh yeah.

All the time. Yeah. And we're always stuck with this. This is going off point actually a little bit, but I was just thinking about this again today. so we use cards so much, they're often, a little, preview of a blog post or something like that where there might be a heading, some text, an image, perhaps another link in there.

And we want that whole thing to be clickable because it seems obvious that this whole card should be clickable. And obviously the wrong way to do it is to put it all in an A tag. So everything is there. Now, why that's wrong is because the AAG should just be containing, the text and link to it, not all of this other stuff with images and all this other stuff.

So that's the wrong way to do it. But the only other solution we've got is this sort of CSS hack at the moment where we put this overlay over the top of it, but also this, and Hayden doesn't solve this by the way. It's still to be solved. This thing about the web, you can put an overlay on, so the whole thing if you like, becomes clickable, but you can't select the individual text within that, which is something that you should be able to do.

So the, there still is no good solution. there's a sort of a JavaScript hack for this kind of thing, so you can delay it so the JavaScript will, so you can select your text and when you, anyways, it's a complex thing, but it's just a really interesting, and that we're still at that point now, you know what, nearly 40 years on since the Yeah.

Still evolving. It's still an emerging technology. There are still bits, key bits like that which need, another look basically. Yeah, there are, I'll put 'em at the end there. There are some other links to some things as well where you can learn if you like how to, start applying this.

I'm, I think actually we are at the end. I'm going to move on. I'll just quickly add that, any links that are mentioned will go into the descriptions and, what have you on the no script, show website. So if you go to no script show slash three one, the numbers 31, you'll be able to find the links there and actually showing them on the screen, on clickable, in a video.

[00:37:27] Nathan Wrigley: That would be nice. there's some, links. You don't need those reading out I'm guessing, or do you no. put them on for those who can see it. But yes, you're quite right. They'll be there. And the PDF that we're using there will also be online and there'll be the clickable links on there, but there's a whole bunch of them things that we've mentioned before, which I think if you want to learn more about this topic, these are good resources there to get into it.

[00:37:52] David Waumsley: And I think that's the kind of way the web is moving at least at the top end. and I think the summary of the whole show really is the fact that it costs less to do it right in the beginning. and I think that also shows that it makes you more, not only does it cost less to do it right at the beginning, but it makes you more in the end, curiously.

[00:38:20] Nathan Wrigley: So it's a bit of a, I hate to use the phrase, but it's a bit of a win-win. Yes. Oh, I, I wonder though, where fighting this, because it does seem, obviously page builders, they were popular for time and now AI is really popular and it's, this idea that, AI will be able to make our websites for us and, I'm really becoming.

[00:38:43] David Waumsley: Much more adverse to this. we should be creating websites for human beings all the time and not trusting, ai. And there was a wonderful quote, and I just included this that I saw. That's lovely. A guy. Yeah. Alex, Wood, who's a software engineer and a bit of a tech writer. He is got a blog and he said, let in an LLM write for you is like paying someone to work out for you.

And I really find, okay, it's exactly that, isn't it? It you de-skill yourself, but also when you apply this to the web, it's almost like you are tripping other people over at the same time as Yeah, because yourself, it's a black box, isn't it? You're just, you, don't look at the code and with regret, dear listener.

[00:39:26] Nathan Wrigley: I think the code is the point. If you're gonna build these sites correctly, you do need to get into the code. Yeah. And, examine whether or not it's been implemented in the most accessible way. So yeah. Gosh. HI love that. Anyway, that, that brings us to the end. I dunno. Okay. In which case, I will bid you adia.

Just one more reminder, no script show slash 3 1 31 for the show notes and what have you. And, we'll see you next time, David. Yeah. Have a good, thank you. Have a good day. And see you soon. Yeah. Bye-Bye. Bye.