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00:00:02 [Speaker 1]
Becca Rubenfeld, thanks for joining them.
00:00:06 [Speaker 1]
The Bitcoin Treasuries podcast.
00:00:08 [Speaker 1]
Thank you.
00:00:08 [Speaker 1]
Appreciate you making the time during this time.
00:00:11 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:00:12 [Speaker 2]
First time.
00:00:12 [Speaker 2]
It’s been a very, very busy couple of weeks for for a lot
00:00:16 [Speaker 1]
of people.
00:00:16 [Speaker 1]
So Yeah.
00:00:18 [Speaker 1]
I think we last saw each other at the strategy conference in Vegas
00:00:23 [Speaker 2]
Vegas.
00:00:23 [Speaker 2]
Yes.
00:00:24 [Speaker 1]
Earlier this year.
00:00:25 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:00:25 [Speaker 2]
Shared shared a meal, a mini meal, I think.
00:00:28 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:00:29 [Speaker 1]
It’s good.
00:00:30 [Speaker 1]
I’m
00:00:30 [Speaker 2]
happy to talk to you.
00:00:32 [Speaker 1]
For those not familiar, can you give a little bit on your background and AnchorWatch?
00:00:38 [Speaker 2]
Sure.
00:00:38 [Speaker 2]
So I’m cofounder and chief operating officer of AnchorWatch.
00:00:42 [Speaker 2]
AnchorWatch is a Bitcoin custody platform, and we are an insurance provider.
00:00:48 [Speaker 2]
So we can write custody insurance on Bitcoin that’s held in our platform.
00:00:52 [Speaker 2]
We can underwrite and insure entire other companies’ platforms.
00:00:58 [Speaker 2]
We can write custom policies for kind of Bitcoin adjacent things.
00:01:04 [Speaker 2]
Really, we want if it’s about Bitcoin and insurance, we want you to start with us.
00:01:08 [Speaker 2]
My background before insurance before Bitcoin, I was working in big corporate America.
00:01:13 [Speaker 2]
So I’d always been in a large corporate setting, and I was at Starbucks for ten years.
00:01:19 [Speaker 2]
Did a variety of things from product development to I ran a $20,000,000,000 fintech program for the last three years I was there.
00:01:27 [Speaker 2]
And I started my career, in apparel.
00:01:30 [Speaker 2]
So I was a fashion merchant where you both build the financial plans, but actually choose the, selection that goes into stores.
00:01:38 [Speaker 2]
And I did that at Target and American Eagle Outfitters.
00:01:43 [Speaker 1]
What is the last two weeks now been, like, from your seat?
00:01:48 [Speaker 1]
I you know, I I’ve I’ve watched, Natalie’s interview with Rob and and that interview with, Alex Thorne over at Galaxy.
00:01:55 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:01:56 [Speaker 1]
Be interesting to hear your perspective and, maybe go from there.
00:02:00 [Speaker 2]
Sure.
00:02:01 [Speaker 2]
So, I mean, I would say I have kind of two hats here.
00:02:05 [Speaker 2]
One is as cofounder and a leader of Anchor Watch, and the other one is as Rob’s cofounder and and business partner and just being up close to him as he’s doing that work and maybe getting a little bit more of a of a running update of what’s going on.
00:02:22 [Speaker 2]
So in terms of, you know, watching Rob, I mean, wow.
00:02:28 [Speaker 2]
Like, what a vital vital two weeks for the Bitcoin industry.
00:02:34 [Speaker 2]
So, you know, obviously, the vulnerability on the cold card, I mean, it’s there there will be a lot of talking about it.
00:02:42 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:02:43 [Speaker 2]
That’s it’s a huge disappointment, to hear that it had gone down the way it had, to see the, GitHub reading Dusty’s write up.
00:02:55 [Speaker 2]
But more than anything, you know, hearing the stories of people losing their Bitcoin, we definitely signed up customers, who are in that position.
00:03:05 [Speaker 2]
We offered a a free two months, so with with no cost, no withdrawal fees.
00:03:11 [Speaker 2]
So we did have people coming over to use that, and they were able to move their Bitcoin onto our platform for safekeeping, for free.
00:03:21 [Speaker 2]
And, you know, over the next fifty days or so, they can decide if they’re gonna stay with us or or move on to different self custody platforms.
00:03:29 [Speaker 2]
So hearing a lot of those stories, up close, my I think I’m up to five personal friends who, you know, lost a significant amount of Bitcoin.
00:03:39 [Speaker 2]
I’m sure there are more I don’t know about.
00:03:42 [Speaker 2]
And I, you know, I feel terrible because I don’t feel like I have the time because of work.
00:03:48 [Speaker 2]
I don’t have necessarily the time to support my friends the way I would like to, because, you know, this was obviously a personal loss for everybody that was impacted.
00:03:58 [Speaker 2]
Now watching Rob then, let’s say, transition from the cold card event and have that transition into the kind of red team ongoing exercises was, fascinating, super action packed.
00:04:16 [Speaker 2]
I mean, Rob’s really good about, kind of putting out feelers on Twitter so you can kinda get a sense of, what he’s doing and and where he’s at.
00:04:26 [Speaker 2]
But, you know, I was quoted as saying it was like they were off at war, and that really is what it feels like.
00:04:32 [Speaker 2]
You know, he might be working from his home computer like he always is, so he’s exactly where he is when he and I normally interact.
00:04:40 [Speaker 2]
And yet it it felt like he was gone.
00:04:43 [Speaker 2]
Gone.
00:04:44 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:04:44 [Speaker 2]
Because he was, and and the others, of course.
00:04:48 [Speaker 2]
But, you know, my lenses to him was just fully, fully, focused on security and security only.
00:04:58 [Speaker 2]
You know, first with our own systems and, scanning our own infrastructure, making sure our customers were in good shape, and then quickly moving on to, other repositories in the ecosystem.
00:05:12 [Speaker 2]
He cares deeply, deeply about Bitcoin and the ecosystem.
00:05:17 [Speaker 2]
He’s been in since 2013.
00:05:19 [Speaker 2]
And, like all of us, but he deeply just wants it to thrive and do well.
00:05:27 [Speaker 2]
And so more or less, he he told me.
00:05:30 [Speaker 2]
He’s like, you’ve got Anchor Watch.
00:05:33 [Speaker 2]
Like, I’m helping here.
00:05:35 [Speaker 2]
And we would touch in two, three times a day.
00:05:38 [Speaker 2]
He would give me an update of what he was seeing, and, you know, he’s been, at this point, quite public, and and, you know, no specifics.
00:05:47 [Speaker 2]
Like, they’re certainly following the rules of responsible disclosure.
00:05:51 [Speaker 2]
But, you know, I would get calls from him, and it’s just like you to talk to him, his voice, it’s like he sounded like he was in Vietnam with a cigarette hanging out of his mouth.
00:06:00 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:06:01 [Speaker 2]
He’d be like, it’s bad in here.
00:06:03 [Speaker 2]
It’s bad.
00:06:04 [Speaker 2]
And so, like, you know, they’re just finding, like, item after item after item and sending them off.
00:06:10 [Speaker 2]
And, you know, I think the first few days, a lot of the maintainers weren’t necessarily, as receptive to the alerts, though I think everybody figured out very quickly that was in their benefit.
00:06:25 [Speaker 2]
And so, you know, just watching watching that work continue, it was really amazing seeing Calais, James O’Byrne, Rob, and, you know, what, 20 or 30 other people really organized themselves, quite, you know, quite impressively.
00:06:44 [Speaker 2]
It organized themselves into this force, you know, where they’re passing information and and they’re rereviewing each other’s reviews, and they’re learning quickly how to maximize use of the, models and figuring out that they can find different vulnerabilities and different results if different people do the prompting to the AI.
00:07:07 [Speaker 2]
So that’s been really interesting.
00:07:09 [Speaker 2]
And then I think, he’s been very clear, and a lot of the developers have been very clear.
00:07:14 [Speaker 2]
The red team has been very clear that probably the bigger story is the one about US, frontier models, you know, really throttling back the power of the models when doing the red team activities.
00:07:31 [Speaker 2]
And so they’ve been forced to use the Chinese open source model, Kimmy k three, to do their the the majority of their work.
00:07:38 [Speaker 2]
And that’s just that’s a huge risk to American companies.
00:07:42 [Speaker 2]
Like, we should we should be able to use American models and get the best results and create the best security.
00:07:48 [Speaker 2]
So very, very intense, at AnchorWatch.
00:07:53 [Speaker 2]
You know, we built the company to protect people.
00:07:56 [Speaker 2]
We built the company originally to try to ensure self custody.
00:08:00 [Speaker 2]
That was the original desire of Rob and myself was we felt people should be able to hold Bitcoin on a multisig and get insurance.
00:08:08 [Speaker 2]
What we found was Lloyds wasn’t quite ready for that, for, pure self custody, So we built, our Trident vaults.
00:08:17 [Speaker 2]
That’s where we hold keys and the customer holds keys.
00:08:20 [Speaker 2]
Now we’ve expanded.
00:08:21 [Speaker 2]
We do multi institutional and others.
00:08:24 [Speaker 2]
But we built we built this to enable people to hold keys and still have the security that gets around all those tail risks.
00:08:32 [Speaker 2]
So it was a really, big two weeks for us on the team, but very gratifying for the team.
00:08:39 [Speaker 2]
They all worked really long hours, but they heard all these stories too.
00:08:42 [Speaker 2]
They consoled people.
00:08:46 [Speaker 2]
People just cried with relief even who hadn’t had a loss.
00:08:49 [Speaker 2]
Like, it was a very emotional, couple of weeks.
00:08:52 [Speaker 1]
So yeah.
00:08:56 [Speaker 1]
Can you take us kind of back to basics?
00:09:00 [Speaker 1]
Because Mhmm.
00:09:01 [Speaker 1]
There’s probably a nonzero chance that someone out there is listening to this and saying, why are you talking about cold card?
00:09:10 [Speaker 1]
I have some Bitcoin on a cold card.
00:09:11 [Speaker 1]
I don’t even know what’s going on right now.
00:09:14 [Speaker 2]
Well, if if anybody does find themselves in that position, we do want them to take action.
00:09:22 [Speaker 2]
So I’ll just start there.
00:09:23 [Speaker 2]
If you have any Bitcoin that is on a device that looks like these specifically, like this company, which is a cold card, if you, ever, you know, held your Bitcoin on these devices, if you created your private key on these devices and they’re still there, whether in a single sig or is two of a multisig, two of three, your Bitcoin needs to be moved immediately, like, immediately.
00:09:49 [Speaker 2]
So back to basics.
00:09:50 [Speaker 2]
What happened is there it it wasn’t actually a hack.
00:09:54 [Speaker 2]
It was a vulnerability.
00:09:56 [Speaker 2]
It was a poor piece of code that was written into the firmware of these devices starting in 2021, I believe.
00:10:04 [Speaker 2]
So more or less, what happened is this device has ultimately two main jobs.
00:10:10 [Speaker 2]
It’s to generate a super long number, random number, key random, which then, gets turned into your private private seed.
00:10:19 [Speaker 2]
So it’s supposed to generate that number, its job really long, really random, and then hold it for you.
00:10:24 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:10:25 [Speaker 2]
Hide it behind the PIN code.
00:10:28 [Speaker 2]
These two devices, what happened is the firmware was, coded that that number wasn’t actually random.
00:10:36 [Speaker 2]
So it it had repetition in it such that a computer can just churn through possibilities and eventually guess that number.
00:10:45 [Speaker 2]
So the number generally is not guessable.
00:10:48 [Speaker 2]
That’s why self custody is possible.
00:10:51 [Speaker 2]
That’s that’s public private key pair.
00:10:53 [Speaker 2]
What’s happening is the oldest of these devices, which was called the m k three, that number was super not random, and that means that hackers were able to use that vulnerability, guess the private key, even if you had never had this connected to the Internet, even if it was sitting in your door.
00:11:11 [Speaker 2]
And they were able to drain the wallet without you ever touching it and signing a transaction because they actually did have the private key.
00:11:20 [Speaker 2]
So they it wasn’t a problem with Bitcoin code.
00:11:23 [Speaker 2]
It was a problem with this.
00:11:25 [Speaker 2]
And then the reason why you still have a chance if you have Bitcoin on these items is the more recent models, the four, five, and then this one, the q.
00:11:37 [Speaker 2]
Those numbers were more random, but still not random enough.
00:11:41 [Speaker 2]
So sometime in the coming hours or days, the cryptography will also break on those devices, and Bitcoin will be drained.
00:11:50 [Speaker 2]
So we hope that most people have heard these warnings and have already moved their Bitcoin.
00:11:57 [Speaker 2]
If you are in that situation, you can reach out to me, and I can get you help, or any number of people, at companies, just friendly helpers who are well known on Twitter.
00:12:10 [Speaker 2]
You need to reach out to somebody.
00:12:12 [Speaker 2]
If you’re not experienced, look for help.
00:12:14 [Speaker 2]
You may want to use Slipstream, to help move your transaction through the mempool depending on your situation.
00:12:22 [Speaker 2]
So, really, this is urgent.
00:12:24 [Speaker 2]
This is a code red.
00:12:25 [Speaker 2]
If you’re traveling, you should be getting back and you have one of these devices.
00:12:29 [Speaker 2]
You should be flying home and, getting to it.
00:12:32 [Speaker 2]
You should be sending a neighbor into your house and talking them through moving your Bitcoin.
00:12:36 [Speaker 2]
There’s no time to lose on this.
00:12:38 [Speaker 2]
The Bitcoin could be drained at any time.
00:12:40 [Speaker 2]
So it’s an ongoing issue.
00:12:42 [Speaker 2]
So that’s actually what kicked it off, was that particular issue.
00:12:47 [Speaker 2]
So it really was limited to cold card, truly.
00:12:51 [Speaker 2]
How that transition then into this broader Bitcoin wide industry event was when the reports of drained Bitcoin started to occur, Rob, these other guys, James, the block engineers, from that company, started to put things together and were able to fairly quickly, isolate it to cold card and figured out that it was likely an entropy error.
00:13:21 [Speaker 2]
Rob with AnchorWatch, you know, uses AI significantly.
00:13:27 [Speaker 2]
He’s a data scientist by trade, so, he’s, let’s say, an advanced user.
00:13:32 [Speaker 2]
And so, you know, we had supported Coldcard.
00:13:36 [Speaker 2]
He’s extraordinarily familiar with the device, and its software anyway.
00:13:42 [Speaker 2]
So he pointed our AI models, our anchor watch AI models at the, at the code that he was able to look at.
00:13:52 [Speaker 2]
And what he discovered was that Anthropic and OpenAI, as soon as he started poking at security, you know, things that could be interpreted as, say, like, trying to hack, the models immediately downgraded him.
00:14:07 [Speaker 2]
So they took him from the top strength model down to Opus, and similar.
00:14:14 [Speaker 2]
And so on Monday of that week, this Chinese open source model called Kimmy k three had also come out, and it, it was just, you know, full, full power, full strength.
00:14:27 [Speaker 2]
And so he had already been playing around with it, so he tried to assess the situation with Kim e k three.
00:14:34 [Speaker 2]
And what he found was that where the American models were like one of them just literally said nothing.
00:14:40 [Speaker 2]
One of them, he had to, like, massage it a little bit, but he was able to get some information out of it.
00:14:46 [Speaker 2]
The Chinese model, it was I think it gave him, like, 78 bugs.
00:14:51 [Speaker 2]
Not not full bugs.
00:14:52 [Speaker 2]
I shouldn’t say that.
00:14:53 [Speaker 2]
Now I’m getting out of my expertise.
00:14:55 [Speaker 2]
I don’t wanna misspeak.
00:14:56 [Speaker 2]
But, you know, had called out a significant number of things to look at, and they’ve they’ve tweeted about that.
00:15:05 [Speaker 2]
And so right away, he could see, like, oh my goodness.
00:15:08 [Speaker 2]
Like, this is a huge risk because the bad guys will use the open source model.
00:15:12 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:15:13 [Speaker 2]
They’ll use the strongest one available.
00:15:15 [Speaker 2]
They don’t care about complying by rules or, you know, using The US sanctioned models.
00:15:20 [Speaker 2]
They’re gonna use the most powerful one.
00:15:22 [Speaker 2]
And he immediately understood if you’re not playing defense with something equally strong, then immediately, they’re gonna have all this insight.
00:15:30 [Speaker 2]
Because if you’re checking your own security so say you’re in you’re running a company.
00:15:35 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:15:35 [Speaker 2]
That’s who, is listening to us.
00:15:38 [Speaker 2]
So let’s say you’re running a company and you’re just assuming your security engineers and your engineers on your team are, you know, using AI to try to, infiltrate your own systems to kinda red team your own systems.
00:15:51 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:15:52 [Speaker 2]
And they probably are.
00:15:53 [Speaker 2]
I hope they are.
00:15:54 [Speaker 2]
But if they’re doing it with AI, sorry, the American models, what we know is right now, since two weeks ago, Monday, bad guys have something much stronger, and what they’re doing is not gonna be particularly effective against it.
00:16:07 [Speaker 2]
So everybody I think what this is calling to attention is everybody, regardless of industry, immediately needs to be paying attention.
00:16:16 [Speaker 2]
Because to me, it makes perfect sense that right now, hackers are turning to Bitcoin because there’s Bitcoin to steal.
00:16:26 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:16:26 [Speaker 2]
So Bitcoin itself, Bitcoin code, they it’s, like, amazing.
00:16:31 [Speaker 2]
The the library for that, they’ve found, like, nothing.
00:16:34 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:16:35 [Speaker 2]
So open source, it’s been poured over by, good and bad actors for for years and years.
00:16:42 [Speaker 2]
It’s solid.
00:16:42 [Speaker 2]
But all these open source projects around it, all these companies around it, that’s where, you know, the red team is putting their efforts right now.
00:16:50 [Speaker 2]
So it’s everybody who has infrastructure that moves, touches, custodies, trades, you know, has products built on Bitcoin.
00:17:00 [Speaker 2]
All of these companies that have Bitcoin adjacent code, that’s where they’re finding all these vulnerabilities.
00:17:06 [Speaker 2]
And as quickly as possible, surfacing them, telling the companies, you know, notifying them privately so they can, as quickly as possible, patch the bug, reinforce their defenses, and be in a good spot.
00:17:20 [Speaker 2]
So if you’re a company leader who’s outside this industry or maybe your company owns Bitcoin, but your primary operations are elsewhere, You still need to be paying close, close attention here because as soon as they have stolen whatever Bitcoin they can get at, and, you know, hopefully, it’s been contained down to the cold card incident.
00:17:42 [Speaker 2]
I wouldn’t assume that bit big companies are in a different position than small companies.
00:17:48 [Speaker 2]
I think everybody is scrambling right now, and should be.
00:17:53 [Speaker 2]
So I would not, make any presumptions, based on size.
00:17:59 [Speaker 2]
You need to understand that as soon as bad guys have taken Bitcoin that can be taken, they’ll just move on to the old games, whether it’s stealing your customer data, whether it’s stealing your company secrets, whatever they can do to either steal money or to steal data that can be sold on the dark web.
00:18:20 [Speaker 2]
So this is applicable to everybody regardless of your Bitcoin position, and I really recommend that you’re utilizing these tools, that you’re having your tech teams, make sure that they are aware of what’s going on even if nothing in your system, is Bitcoin related.
00:18:40 [Speaker 1]
Can you explain what the red team is?
00:18:45 [Speaker 2]
Sure.
00:18:46 [Speaker 2]
So, I mean, I I believe red red teaming is a is a phrase already.
00:18:50 [Speaker 2]
I don’t think that was invented by this group.
00:18:54 [Speaker 2]
Again, I’m a little out of my area of expertise.
00:18:56 [Speaker 2]
But, I believe red teaming in general is where, you are attacking systems but from a friendly.
00:19:06 [Speaker 2]
So you are going through now I do not know necessarily the difference between red teaming and white hat hackers, which are similar.
00:19:16 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:19:17 [Speaker 2]
But at the end of the day, the red team was this group of engineers.
00:19:23 [Speaker 2]
So Calle, James O’Byrne, what, Ben, Rob, and I I should probably stop mentioning people because I know there are there are two or three dozen, people who are all contributing their their time.
00:19:39 [Speaker 2]
But they are the group of engineers who are working pretty much around the clock, time zones around the world, and they are pointing the AI models, all of them, but especially the open source, at kind of any Bitcoin repositories that are, open source.
00:20:01 [Speaker 2]
So where the repos are just out there on GitHub and the team is aware that they exist, they’re pulling the repos and starting to scan them.
00:20:10 [Speaker 2]
If they find anything, they’re reaching out to the, maintainer of the repo.
00:20:16 [Speaker 2]
For companies, I believe some companies have voluntarily, but privately shared their code base and asked, the red team to scan it for them.
00:20:28 [Speaker 2]
In other cases, large companies sometimes well, companies of all sizes have public repositories, which is separate from their private repositories, but public repositories that, you know, users or developers can build on, things like that.
00:20:44 [Speaker 2]
So they’re scanning those as well for the for the Bitcoin and crypto industry.
00:20:49 [Speaker 2]
And just like kind of smaller Bitcoin only companies, they’re notifying those following responsible disclosure, if and when they find anything.
00:20:58 [Speaker 2]
So that’s that’s who they are.
00:20:59 [Speaker 2]
So it’s twenty, thirty, maybe 40, engineers loosely organized, that started this group.
00:21:09 [Speaker 2]
And then, last week, OpenSats took it over, to coordinate, donations to help cover the spend.
00:21:18 [Speaker 2]
Anchor Watch was covering it, and we will be making a donation to OpenSats as well.
00:21:26 [Speaker 2]
But, ultimately, we were spending, about 9,000 a day, on the models.
00:21:34 [Speaker 2]
And so, we had lots of volunteers, offers from both individuals and companies, to help, you know, fund his efforts because they are absolutely, good for the entire industry.
00:21:47 [Speaker 2]
Trust me that, like, there is good work happening, to to everybody’s protection.
00:21:53 [Speaker 2]
And, ultimately, we were able to say direct those donations to OpenSats.
00:22:00 [Speaker 2]
We, are being reimbursed what we spent.
00:22:03 [Speaker 2]
We will then make a donation to help the work continue.
00:22:07 [Speaker 2]
So OpenSats is kind of, running the show from here on out.
00:22:12 [Speaker 2]
But I think they will keep going until they run out of tokens effectively.
00:22:18 [Speaker 2]
And then if if and when, eventually, the donations kind of run out as as things do when the excitement dies down, then it goes back to, the good old the good old days of a combination of the smallest open source projects probably continue to rely on organizations like OpenSats to get support, and big companies, or even, you know, small to midsize companies are back to, on their own, protecting their infrastructure, like they always needed to.
00:22:53 [Speaker 2]
So, that’s kinda what’s been going on.
00:22:57 [Speaker 2]
Totally unofficial and informal in terms of who’s on it.
00:23:02 [Speaker 2]
But, yeah, that’s the work.
00:23:05 [Speaker 1]
Can you walk us through the different options available to folks, like single sig, multi sig, single institution, multi institution.
00:23:19 [Speaker 1]
There’s there’s all these solutions, and all of them come with different things you need to think about.
00:23:24 [Speaker 1]
I’m trying not to use the word risk, but there’s risk in everything in life.
00:23:28 [Speaker 2]
There’s absolutely trade offs to every custody model.
00:23:33 [Speaker 2]
There’s trade offs.
00:23:34 [Speaker 2]
So you need to think about the trade offs and think about what is, in my opinion, most statistically likely.
00:23:42 [Speaker 2]
Ensure that you are protected one way or the other from the highest statistical likes, and then you can go on to cover your tail risks.
00:23:51 [Speaker 2]
So, in terms of the various custody type, so the the cold card incidents, you know, the most at risk people were people using single sig.
00:24:01 [Speaker 2]
So, you know, we always use the analogy of a post office that the Bitcoin blockchain is like a wall of PO boxes except with clear doors.
00:24:11 [Speaker 2]
So anybody can see in.
00:24:13 [Speaker 2]
Anybody could put mail in the slot.
00:24:16 [Speaker 2]
So anybody can send Bitcoin into an address.
00:24:18 [Speaker 2]
Only the person with the private key can put the key in the door, open it, and actually take Bitcoin out of the private address.
00:24:25 [Speaker 2]
So that’s kind of what custody is.
00:24:27 [Speaker 2]
Custody is the key.
00:24:28 [Speaker 2]
So whoever has the key has the Bitcoin because all Bitcoin custody is is the ability to open that door.
00:24:35 [Speaker 2]
So a single sig is just like what I described.
00:24:37 [Speaker 2]
A single sig is one private key opens the door all by itself.
00:24:42 [Speaker 2]
So it’s easy.
00:24:45 [Speaker 2]
You know, you have to do it right, and there’s lots of things to consider, that probably we are getting technical and and we’ll save for a longer conversation about custody, but it’s it’s easy.
00:24:58 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:24:58 [Speaker 2]
It’s a single device to keep track of.
00:25:00 [Speaker 2]
You can back it up with a steel plate with seed words.
00:25:03 [Speaker 2]
There’s all sorts of, resiliency practices.
00:25:06 [Speaker 2]
But if something goes wrong with it, if you lose it, if you don’t have the backup stored, statistically, I always am extremely concerned about inheritance.
00:25:17 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:25:18 [Speaker 2]
Does your family have the ability to locate it, remember what you told them, understand, even if it’s decades later.
00:25:28 [Speaker 2]
So then there’s multisig.
00:25:30 [Speaker 2]
Multisig is where you have the door, but there’s multiple keys, and you need a majority of them to open the door.
00:25:39 [Speaker 2]
So picture the same door, but three holes three keyholes.
00:25:43 [Speaker 2]
So there’s three keys.
00:25:44 [Speaker 2]
You need any two of them to turn the key to open the door.
00:25:48 [Speaker 2]
That’s multisig.
00:25:49 [Speaker 2]
So that way, something bad can happen to one of those keys.
00:25:54 [Speaker 2]
And even if that happens so even if there’s a fire, even if it’s lost, even if it gets stolen, you still have two keys hopefully located in other locations, and you can go retrieve them and sign a transaction and move the Bitcoin.
00:26:08 [Speaker 2]
So multisig is much, much more resilient than single sig, much more resilient than single sig.
00:26:16 [Speaker 2]
If you have wealth of any significance, I would recommend multisig if you’re doing pure self custody.
00:26:24 [Speaker 2]
Next is collaborative custody.
00:26:27 [Speaker 2]
Collaborative custody is where a company holds that third key or or the backup key.
00:26:33 [Speaker 2]
So some companies have a two of three.
00:26:36 [Speaker 2]
Some companies have a three of five.
00:26:38 [Speaker 2]
Either way, they hold the the fewer of the keys.
00:26:41 [Speaker 2]
So you hold two, they hold one.
00:26:43 [Speaker 2]
So, again, you can spend the Bitcoin on your own.
00:26:46 [Speaker 2]
You have two.
00:26:47 [Speaker 2]
It is true self custody, pure self custody because you have the majority of the keys.
00:26:52 [Speaker 2]
But if something happened to one, that company is there to help you out and provide the second signature.
00:26:59 [Speaker 2]
Now, again, with this one, you still have to be cognizant about retirement or, I’m sorry, inheritance and estate planning because the company so, like, Unchained and Casa are the best known of these companies.
00:27:13 [Speaker 2]
Your beneficiary, your family, they still or the company.
00:27:17 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:27:17 [Speaker 2]
They still need to have the ability to get at and control at least one of those keys.
00:27:23 [Speaker 2]
So if that’s too much pressure to put on your beneficiaries, it may not be a great model.
00:27:30 [Speaker 2]
But it is again, it provides an enormous amount of security compared to, like, single sig.
00:27:37 [Speaker 2]
Next is, one of the models that Anchor Watch offers, which is what we call supported self custody.
00:27:45 [Speaker 2]
So we use what’s called mini script, which is, an aspect of Bitcoin code, that lets you hold actually, multisigs at the same time.
00:27:57 [Speaker 2]
So if we’re talking to a company, a company could hold, for example, a two of three, and Anchor Watch holds a two of three.
00:28:05 [Speaker 2]
We both we both both must sign.
00:28:09 [Speaker 2]
It’s not a four of six.
00:28:10 [Speaker 2]
It’s two independent two of threes that both must sign, in order to move the Bitcoin.
00:28:17 [Speaker 2]
If something goes wrong, we utilize time locks.
00:28:20 [Speaker 2]
So that’s how we spend.
00:28:22 [Speaker 2]
If everything’s fine, company signs, we sign.
00:28:24 [Speaker 2]
This is deep cold storage.
00:28:25 [Speaker 2]
It’s not a hot wallet.
00:28:26 [Speaker 2]
This is, like, for high security.
00:28:29 [Speaker 2]
But if something went wrong, if, there was a coup at the company and the leaders refused to sign transactions, all of these like, whatever the scenario, we have time locks with a recovery ability.
00:28:43 [Speaker 2]
The recovery ability is not Anchor Watch having your keys.
00:28:47 [Speaker 2]
The the customer keys are the customer private keys.
00:28:50 [Speaker 2]
We just have our own key set.
00:28:52 [Speaker 2]
The time lock has it where our key set in combination with a whole another company, so it’s effectively a multi institutional recovery layer.
00:29:01 [Speaker 2]
We can together come together and move the Bitcoin on the customer’s behalf.
00:29:06 [Speaker 2]
So if something has gone wrong, we can come in and effectively save the day.
00:29:10 [Speaker 2]
After that layer, if you’re insured, it goes to pure self custody again.
00:29:15 [Speaker 2]
So you don’t have to ask us for your Bitcoin back.
00:29:17 [Speaker 2]
Anchor Watch can never move it without you.
00:29:20 [Speaker 2]
If you are not insured, we flip those.
00:29:23 [Speaker 2]
So it goes from full protection while everything is fine.
00:29:28 [Speaker 2]
If you stop being our customer and you don’t wanna be our customer anymore, the normal way is we just work together and we’ll send it where you want.
00:29:35 [Speaker 2]
But if if we’re, risk modeling, after that, if we were refusing to sign for any reason, it would just go to pure self custody.
00:29:44 [Speaker 2]
The company could sign with their 203, but let’s say something had gone wrong.
00:29:49 [Speaker 2]
Somebody died, whatever.
00:29:51 [Speaker 2]
Then there’s a recovery layer with us in CoinCorner after self custody.
00:29:56 [Speaker 2]
So if you’re not insured, you have access to it first, and then we can come in and help if something went wrong, but you have some risk here because you’re you’re unsupported while it’s true self custody.
00:30:07 [Speaker 2]
If you’re insured, we do recovery first.
00:30:10 [Speaker 2]
That means that we can actually protect you from quite a few more things, but we also insure against ourselves being a bad actor.
00:30:21 [Speaker 2]
So that’s, our flagship model.
00:30:23 [Speaker 2]
That’s unique with us.
00:30:24 [Speaker 2]
It’s all Bitcoin native.
00:30:26 [Speaker 2]
From there, you can go to pure custodial models.
00:30:30 [Speaker 2]
There’s primarily two custodial models.
00:30:32 [Speaker 2]
One is multi institutional, and one is a sole custodian.
00:30:36 [Speaker 2]
So a sole custodian is just where you’re handing your keys over handing your Bitcoin over to a single company, and they’re holding it.
00:30:44 [Speaker 2]
Internally, they might use multisigs and very advanced kind of key protection.
00:30:49 [Speaker 2]
But in terms of who you are giving your keys to, it is a single company.
00:30:54 [Speaker 2]
And so there, the risks that you’re worried about are major hacks to the company, internal crime where employees of the company infiltrate their own systems and drain.
00:31:06 [Speaker 2]
So these are and maybe, you know, poor management we’ve had in the past.
00:31:11 [Speaker 2]
So these are, large scale exchanges custodians.
00:31:16 [Speaker 2]
And then the last one would be multi institution custody.
00:31:20 [Speaker 2]
A few different companies offer it.
00:31:22 [Speaker 2]
Anchor Watch offers it.
00:31:25 [Speaker 2]
But what that is is you don’t have to hold keys.
00:31:28 [Speaker 2]
So it is custodial, but the keys are spread between multiple companies.
00:31:32 [Speaker 2]
You know, Anchor Watch, in addition to having the tech platform, we do provide insurance.
00:31:37 [Speaker 2]
And we know actuarially when one of the biggest risks, as I mentioned, is internal crime.
00:31:44 [Speaker 2]
So when it’s our platform, you’re insured against us, and our institutional keyholders being a bad actor.
00:31:52 [Speaker 2]
But that’s a big risk.
00:31:54 [Speaker 2]
When you bring in a second company, actuarially, that risk drops significantly.
00:32:01 [Speaker 2]
So it is actually demonstrably safer to use multi institution custody versus a sole custodian, you know, by by a pretty significant percentage.
00:32:13 [Speaker 2]
And that just makes sense.
00:32:14 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:32:14 [Speaker 2]
You’ve got employees of a company who maybe work together for years.
00:32:19 [Speaker 2]
They can, maybe each of them has kind of pieces of the puzzle to infiltrate the company’s defenses.
00:32:26 [Speaker 2]
But if you try to then take those couple of guys, and find somebody internal at the other company and they also find their accomplices and coordinate that together.
00:32:37 [Speaker 2]
It’s not that it is literally impossible.
00:32:39 [Speaker 2]
It’s just the risk goes down very significantly.
00:32:43 [Speaker 2]
And so I think that pretty much rounds out rounds out the Bitcoin native custody models.
00:32:51 [Speaker 2]
Things to be aware of, if you’re a company that is using large custodians, many of them, perhaps all of them, many of them, you should look into it, use, MPC.
00:33:06 [Speaker 2]
So MPC is multiparty computing, and that, is a different way to distribute keys across, across parties, right, across entities.
00:33:20 [Speaker 2]
So that could be across employees in in the same company.
00:33:22 [Speaker 2]
It could be across companies.
00:33:26 [Speaker 2]
But it is not Bitcoin native, and it effectively is a smart contract.
00:33:34 [Speaker 2]
And so there are many additional risk vectors to be aware of.
00:33:39 [Speaker 2]
So first, you have to decide your custody model that you are comfortable with and that fits your needs.
00:33:46 [Speaker 2]
And then if you’re choosing an outside party, whether it’s AnchorWatch, Casa Unchain, Coinbase Prime, whomever it may be, from there, you need to ask questions about their tech, their model, their insurance policies, if you’re the beneficiary of payouts on on insurance policies or it just goes back to the company.
00:34:08 [Speaker 2]
You really should be asking all those questions about their infrastructure.
00:34:12 [Speaker 2]
And if there’s been a learning from cold card, when you hear people say, like, no.
00:34:19 [Speaker 2]
No.
00:34:19 [Speaker 2]
It’s the very best.
00:34:21 [Speaker 2]
Like, this is the best there is.
00:34:23 [Speaker 2]
And people nod and be like, okay.
00:34:25 [Speaker 2]
Good.
00:34:25 [Speaker 2]
It’s the best there is.
00:34:27 [Speaker 2]
You know, when you hear a company describe their technology, ask more questions.
00:34:32 [Speaker 2]
It’s not that anybody who’s not capable can audit code, but, absolutely, you should be asking questions.
00:34:41 [Speaker 2]
If companies are holding people’s life savings, they should have professional business practices.
00:34:47 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:34:47 [Speaker 2]
They should have the documentation, the procedures, licensing if appropriate.
00:34:54 [Speaker 2]
Like, they should have the things in place that a normal grown up company should have.
00:34:59 [Speaker 2]
So I think, wake up call to many.
00:35:04 [Speaker 2]
Not to everybody.
00:35:05 [Speaker 2]
I think many in the industry already already are there and run their companies that way.
00:35:11 [Speaker 2]
But I think I think there are many who have been a little bit more on the on the community vibe, and, I think, you know, happy medium is is where we need to be.
00:35:26 [Speaker 2]
But security first and security always.
00:35:29 [Speaker 1]
Out of curiosity, what’s the spectrum and the maybe average, on the time lock sort of aspect that you described?
00:35:40 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:35:41 [Speaker 2]
The way the way our product, our flagship vaults work, is we run them on a one year loop.
00:35:49 [Speaker 2]
So we get together every year.
00:35:51 [Speaker 2]
If we’re whether it’s a company or individuals, we have an annual meeting.
00:35:57 [Speaker 2]
We use that as the opportunity to do key health check, but we actually sign a transaction, which effectively restarts those clocks.
00:36:04 [Speaker 2]
So more or less, you start out the beginning of your year or your insurance policy.
00:36:10 [Speaker 2]
With both of us, you know, as signers, we follow that for eleven months.
00:36:16 [Speaker 2]
The last month of the, of the year is when that recovery period opens if you’re insured.
00:36:26 [Speaker 2]
So during the year, the recovery period happens again because you’re still insured during that recovery period.
00:36:32 [Speaker 2]
If we misuse that, you’re covered by Lloyd’s of London.
00:36:37 [Speaker 2]
If you’re not, we’re both signing all the way until the end of the year where it becomes self custody.
00:36:44 [Speaker 2]
You’re not our customer anymore, but we do we can still be kind of pulled back in afterwards.
00:36:51 [Speaker 2]
So it is kind of an annual, an annual event.
00:36:56 [Speaker 2]
If there’s a large company, you know, many tens of millions worth of Bitcoin, and they would like a custom vault of some variety, so custom time locks.
00:37:07 [Speaker 2]
They would like different key management, you know, different numbers of keys, different number of quorums.
00:37:13 [Speaker 2]
Maybe they want instead of us and them, maybe they want us and then a whole separate quorum for their auditing firm, or whoever it may be.
00:37:23 [Speaker 2]
If it’s a client of size, we can we can talk about doing that for them, and doing something custom.
00:37:30 [Speaker 2]
MiniScript, the technology is totally customizable.
00:37:34 [Speaker 2]
So, for example, a lot of retail customers, not not businesses, but retail customers have asked us about doing longer time locks.
00:37:42 [Speaker 2]
Like, they just wanna be in a forced toggle.
00:37:45 [Speaker 2]
And so we’re thinking about doing that because we could effectively do a a forced tunnel, but with an exit path, you know, with recovery using time lock.
00:37:54 [Speaker 2]
So we could lock it up for somebody for five years or for ten years.
00:37:58 [Speaker 2]
But if they had a medical emergency, if they, you know, just had a life change and truly needed to change their plans, then we could come in and use the recovery, to access that.
00:38:10 [Speaker 2]
So we’ve had quite a few requests for that.
00:38:12 [Speaker 2]
We’re thinking about spinning that up.
00:38:14 [Speaker 2]
But for a normal product, it’s one year.
00:38:17 [Speaker 2]
And then multi institutional custody is not time locked, so that, does not have that, in play.
00:38:29 [Speaker 1]
I had another question, but it’s it’s escaping me right now, which is always perfect.
00:38:35 [Speaker 2]
That’s alright.
00:38:36 [Speaker 2]
I’ve done a big information download here.
00:38:41 [Speaker 1]
What’s the best way to get in touch with you, with Rob, with the red team?
00:38:46 [Speaker 1]
Is it is it DMs on on Twitter x or or otherwise?
00:38:52 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:38:53 [Speaker 2]
Probably.
00:38:54 [Speaker 2]
From the whole last two weeks, I believe today, I am on track to have followed up with everybody and responded to everybody.
00:39:03 [Speaker 2]
So, I would say let me ask answer for Rob first.
00:39:09 [Speaker 2]
Actually, let me go back to this.
00:39:11 [Speaker 2]
If you’re one of these people that has devices here, you reach out to us any way you can.
00:39:16 [Speaker 2]
So you can hit me at becca@anchorwatch.com.
00:39:20 [Speaker 2]
I’m Becca Amile, a m I l e e, on Twitter.
00:39:24 [Speaker 2]
You can hit me on DMs.
00:39:26 [Speaker 2]
You can hit Rob, Rob one Ham.
00:39:29 [Speaker 2]
You can hit my team, Chris at Anchor Watch, Joe at Anchor Watch, Mitch at Anchor Watch.
00:39:34 [Speaker 2]
If you’re one of those people, like, stop listening.
00:39:37 [Speaker 2]
Get in touch with somebody who can help you and move your Bitcoin.
00:39:41 [Speaker 2]
If you’re in a slightly more relaxed situation, same way.
00:39:45 [Speaker 2]
So DMs are probably fastest.
00:39:49 [Speaker 2]
I’m able to catch those, and the communication style is a little quicker so I can hit off a response, or, hand them off to my team that can help them a little bit faster.
00:40:01 [Speaker 2]
Email, of course, is fine.
00:40:03 [Speaker 2]
Just may have a couple of days if it starts stacking up again.
00:40:07 [Speaker 2]
And for Rob, if you have a red team situation, I would recommend Twitter DMs.
00:40:12 [Speaker 2]
He’s pretty on top of them.
00:40:15 [Speaker 2]
And, so if you have a repo that needs to be scanned or you’re looking for advice for setting up your own harness, to scan your own systems, he may pass you on to somebody else on the red team that can help, but he has been, you know, taking those, points of comm.
00:40:32 [Speaker 2]
So if it’s, Anchor Watch related, maybe send it to me, for the next next few days as he continues to split his time, and I can pass it along to him.
00:40:43 [Speaker 2]
Otherwise, if it’s for specific red team activities, go to him directly.
00:40:50 [Speaker 1]
Curious as we kinda wrap up here.
00:40:52 [Speaker 2]
Yeah.
00:40:52 [Speaker 1]
I’ll be respectful of your time.
00:40:54 [Speaker 1]
Like, what what’s your takeaway from all of this?
00:40:57 [Speaker 1]
Is there a slight, not silver lining, but but benefit to this not happening in a raging bull market?
00:41:07 [Speaker 1]
You you never want this to happen, obviously.
00:41:09 [Speaker 1]
Yeah.
00:41:10 [Speaker 1]
And and what’s the reality with like, Bitcoin’s not the best way to, like, move stuff around without people watching you.
00:41:21 [Speaker 1]
So Right.
00:41:22 [Speaker 1]
What’s the actual endgame for the black hats?
00:41:27 [Speaker 1]
Like, is there maybe they’re in a jurisdiction where they can take it off and exchange and and and actually access cash, but, like like Yeah.
00:41:38 [Speaker 1]
It just doesn’t seem like the best way to to to really go about those activities.
00:41:45 [Speaker 1]
I I think Rob, or Alex or both mentioned, you know, the was it the Bitfinex hack where, you know, Billions got all through?
00:41:54 [Speaker 1]
Was it just kind of sitting there, in a wallet for five years, and then they maybe got some Walmart gift cards and got
00:42:01 [Speaker 2]
That’s right.
00:42:01 [Speaker 1]
Like, it just seems like not a great criminal business model.
00:42:05 [Speaker 1]
None of that helps the people affected here, but just curious your thoughts on all that.
00:42:10 [Speaker 2]
It’s good for sanctioned comp countries.
00:42:13 [Speaker 2]
Mhmm.
00:42:14 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:42:15 [Speaker 2]
Because at the end of the day, they don’t care.
00:42:18 [Speaker 2]
So yes, two questions.
00:42:20 [Speaker 2]
So I’ll answer the second one first in terms of, like, what can they do about it.
00:42:26 [Speaker 2]
It depends who they are.
00:42:27 [Speaker 2]
If they are I’d say there’s kind of three outcomes.
00:42:32 [Speaker 2]
One is something similar to Bitfinex.
00:42:34 [Speaker 2]
They’re, you know, domestic hackers of some variety, and, you know, there are signs that that may be the case for the initial wave of wallets being drained.
00:42:47 [Speaker 2]
Maybe some mistakes were made, and, maybe that person will get caught, because of those mistakes.
00:42:53 [Speaker 2]
And, obviously, we’re hoping for that because then there’s a chance that that Bitcoin can be recovered and, you know, be redistributed one way or the other back to victims.
00:43:04 [Speaker 2]
So that would be the best outcome for that individual or individuals who did that.
00:43:13 [Speaker 2]
Option two.
00:43:13 [Speaker 2]
So and the reason they get caught is effectively someday, something is tied to something with their identity.
00:43:20 [Speaker 2]
So Bitfinex bought Walmart gift cards, but I believe like, with with a credit card or something.
00:43:26 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:43:26 [Speaker 2]
Like, they, it allowed them to get caught.
00:43:30 [Speaker 2]
Typically, eventually, they try sending some to an exchange, and exchanges have specific UTXOs tracked.
00:43:39 [Speaker 2]
And they’ve already been notified if this UTXO enters your exchange, freeze it, you know, there’s already a warrant, in place with law enforcement.
00:43:48 [Speaker 2]
If, they are more sophisticated, we’ve seen some of that Bitcoin already move through mixers.
00:43:56 [Speaker 2]
If it is a large UTXO, a large chunk of Bitcoin, which some of it was, that makes it easier to demix.
00:44:05 [Speaker 2]
Because demixing is effectively you’ve cut up the piece of paper in bajillions of little pieces.
00:44:11 [Speaker 2]
Demixing is using computers to piece them back together.
00:44:16 [Speaker 2]
If it’s a billion little UTXOs that are then cut up into smaller pieces and then mixed together, it can be very challenging or very costly to the point of of not happening.
00:44:28 [Speaker 2]
If they’re very large GTXOs, it makes it more feasible.
00:44:31 [Speaker 2]
So there is possibility that more effective tracking, will happen and kind of thwart those efforts.
00:44:41 [Speaker 2]
The, I mean, they could do that successfully.
00:44:44 [Speaker 2]
And the smaller the there were more attackers.
00:44:47 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:44:48 [Speaker 2]
Once the vulnerability was public, then any black hats come in and are trying to, take the Bitcoin.
00:44:55 [Speaker 2]
And so, certainly, others then came in.
00:44:57 [Speaker 2]
Maybe some of those will be successful in in mixing their smaller quantities and get away with it.
00:45:03 [Speaker 2]
The a lot of the large hacks over the last years end up being North Korea.
00:45:10 [Speaker 2]
And so they have entire server farms.
00:45:12 [Speaker 2]
They have entire computer farms that they are literally just pointing at US and first world infrastructure, looking to steal funds.
00:45:23 [Speaker 2]
And so once they get it, they just send it back to to North Korea, and then they use it to buy, you know, buy things from Russia or whatever they however they get their their supplies.
00:45:37 [Speaker 2]
So, no, I think, any of those things are probably a combination of those things.
00:45:43 [Speaker 2]
In terms of, and maybe I can close here because I’ve got another call to hop to.
00:45:49 [Speaker 2]
But in terms of what will come for this from this, I say this with the exception of the victims.
00:45:57 [Speaker 2]
For the victims, I do not wanna gloss over if they don’t get funds back ever.
00:46:03 [Speaker 2]
I just don’t wanna gloss over how all awful it is for them.
00:46:06 [Speaker 2]
So I don’t, I’m not trying to be insensitive to to the individuals who were impacted.
00:46:12 [Speaker 2]
But at the end of the day, yeah, I think already it’s better for Bitcoin.
00:46:18 [Speaker 2]
So all other hardware wallets immediately, you know, were checking, confirming, their own code, you know, looking for similar learnings.
00:46:30 [Speaker 2]
The entire Bitcoin ecosystem is being scanned on these models and is closing down vulnerabilities that already existed.
00:46:38 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:46:38 [Speaker 2]
So cold card existed for years, and it wasn’t found until, at least publicly found, you know, until potentially this model was released TBD on on the details on all that.
00:46:52 [Speaker 2]
So, yeah, I mean, I think everything’s good for Bitcoin.
00:46:58 [Speaker 2]
Right?
00:46:58 [Speaker 2]
Like, I think, it’s it’s a knockback, but, ultimately, this was a small corner of Bitcoin.
00:47:06 [Speaker 2]
You know, the price barely moved.
00:47:10 [Speaker 2]
The large aspect big Bitcoin, you know, barely paused.
00:47:17 [Speaker 2]
And so I think these are really important learnings.
00:47:20 [Speaker 2]
Self custody must exist.
00:47:22 [Speaker 2]
I believe it must be safe.
00:47:24 [Speaker 2]
It should be.
00:47:25 [Speaker 2]
I think it’s like a right.
00:47:26 [Speaker 2]
I think it’s one of the main features of Bitcoin.
00:47:29 [Speaker 2]
Again, our flagship vault is made to let people hold keys.
00:47:33 [Speaker 2]
We think that’s just vital to the existence of Bitcoin even if that’s not how you choose to hold it.
00:47:39 [Speaker 2]
And so I think this will make it stronger.
00:47:42 [Speaker 2]
So I, I do think good things will come of it.
00:47:44 [Speaker 2]
I feel terrible that it required an event like this to kick it off.
00:47:49 [Speaker 2]
But, yeah, things, will march on.
00:47:53 [Speaker 2]
Bitcoin will march on and and do just fine.
00:47:56 [Speaker 1]
Becca, thank you so much for the time today, and we will chat with you later.
00:48:02 [Speaker 2]
Alright.
00:48:02 [Speaker 2]
Thanks for having me.
00:48:03 [Speaker 2]
Have a good day.
00:48:04 [Speaker 1]
Bye bye.
00:48:05 [Speaker 1]
Bye.
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