Rob Murphy
John Marrs, many congratulations on the three decades of success. It’s incredible. What does it feel like looking back?
John Marrs (02:26.958)
When you talk about it like that, it sounds like you’re talking about another person. doesn’t really seem... On a day-to-day basis, I don’t sit here and count books and count sales and things like that and think, oh, I did this and this has been a success. So when you hear somebody else say it, it’s like, okay, I haven’t done too badly after all.
Rob Murphy (02:45.004)
Not too badly. I’m gonna ask you about success. Actually let’s ask you about success now because I’ve asked a couple of multi million selling authors and what are you at five million books, I think, more now?
John Marrs (02:56.514)
Yeah. A few more. He said vaguely.
Rob Murphy (02:59.374)
But when you started writing and someone said you’d have the Netflix, you’d sell five million, six million, whatever however many millions of books, how would you have felt and h how when you actually reach that point does it feel and how different does that feeling feel to what you would have expected it to have done beforehand?
John Marrs (03:22.838)
I wouldn’t have liked them to have told me that because then I would have felt a lot of pressure to try and accomplish that. But because my first three books were self-published, because nobody, no publisher or agent was interested in me, I was doing it all for myself. So there was no pressure. I could do what I wanted to when I wanted to. I could write psychological thrillers, could write speculative fiction, didn’t have to change my name, could switch genres, could do what I wanted to.
And was great. I think had somebody told me that back then, first of all, wouldn’t have believed them. And secondly, I would have been like, yeah, it felt a little bit scary. I was in my comfort zone working for national newspapers and magazines. I knew what I was doing. I didn’t know what I was doing writing. It was just a bit of fun to see what happened.
Rob Murphy (04:08.546)
Well, it’s worked. So Dead in the Water, which we have here, which I’ve read and thoroughly enjoyed, is your fourteenth book, is that right?
John Marrs (04:17.408)
I think so because when you’re writing you’re always right you’re always several books in head so the one after that which comes out next year is already that’s done and dusted. Wow. I’m about 70,000 words through the one after that for 2028 and in the meantime I’ve got a novella coming out so in my head I’ve no idea so you’re probably right it probably is for
Rob Murphy (04:35.826)
14th published. So just give us the premise for Dead in the Water. It involves it centres around a man called Damon, who’s in his late 20s, and he’s an unreliable narrator, isn’t he? He has a past, but the incredible thing is he’s got a past that he himself isn’t even aware of.
John Marrs (04:54.188)
Yeah, yeah. It only starts to come to light when he accidentally drowns and is resuscitated by a paramedic friend of his. And his life is flashed before his eyes. He remembers pretty much everything that’s happened, good and bad, except the one thing he doesn’t remember is seeing a child being killed. And he’s like, well, if everything else is true, then surely this must be true. And so he tries to tap into his...
into his memories and various different ways that don’t work and he decides the only way to find out what happens is if he keeps dying over and over again and resuscitated until the truth finally comes out.
Rob Murphy (05:37.195)
And
Where did the premise come from? I know you get asked this a lot and sometimes you you know, you pull it from the ether, but but this is quite a strong concept, isn’t it? Where did
John Marrs (05:48.91)
Yeah, I don’t know. I honestly can’t tell you. It was in my notes section in my phone and I typed in very briefly, man dies, life flashes before his eyes, remembers everything except something happening. And I didn’t touch it, so I had other projects on the go. So I didn’t touch it for about two or three years. Then suddenly found this note. I was like, oh, okay, yeah, this has legs. And then worked on a plot from there. So I don’t generally remember where that one sprang from.
Rob Murphy (06:14.51)
You don’t remember where you you don’t remember where you were or or or w when it was that that you had the idea?
John Marrs (06:20.622)
No, not at all. But I know what I did do is I thought, okay, this sounds a bit like the plot of Flatliners. So I watched both Flatliners films, the original, which I remember loving in the 90s, but hating because it was so bad when you look at it now. And the remake, which wasn’t particularly great either. And I was thinking, I’ve once seen both of those, was like, okay, cool, I’m not ripping them off.
Rob Murphy (06:43.092)
and it’s dark, isn’t it? It is extremely dark. I and I’ve read a couple of your books actually, and the other one that I I read was also dark. Where does this come on your spectrum of darkness, would you say? Top darkness being ten.
John Marrs (06:57.066)
I’d say it was more towards the 10 mark than some of the others.
Rob Murphy (07:03.328)
although it is dark, you tell it with a lightness of touch though, isn’t it? how what’s it like I guess how long did it take to write something like this? Three, four, five, six months? You know, you’re spending a lot of time in this world. Yeah. how what’s that what’s that like?
John Marrs (07:22.638)
It can be a bit depressing sometimes, to be honest, because you’re constantly thinking about death. My character is, on his mind all the time, so therefore it has to be on my mind. And then researching alternative points of view as to seeing the light and stepping towards the light and then seeing these carousel of images of everything that’s happened in your life and why your brain potentially does that and whether it’s all chemical or whether it’s something else. Yeah.
It can be quite depressing. I found that one probably darker than my other books to write. So the one after that for 2027 is lighter. It’s not a barrel of laughs, but it’s not lighter. And the one after that again is still more on the light side rather than the really dark side.
Rob Murphy (08:09.546)
But it is extremely well observed and it is told with a lightness of touch, isn’t it? You know, it’s not a you might have found it depressing, but actually as a read. You know, it’s dark, but it but it’s not, you know, y there’s there’s a real lightness of touch and it’s it’s extremely propulsive. Your your chapters are short, the characters are strong.
John Marrs (08:27.758)
short and snappy reel them in get them reading just one more chapter that’s the oddest like crack
Rob Murphy (08:32.462)
How long how many words do your chapters tend tend to be? ‘Cause they are
John Marrs (08:36.142)
I normally keep them probably about, if I get to about five, I’d measure them by pages on Word documents. And so if I get to about four pages and I’m still writing, I start to feel a bit jittery. I don’t know how many that translates to in actual pages.
Rob Murphy (08:53.058)
and in terms of the research as well, I mean, did you have to go in c incognito on your your your browser to look at some of the things you were looking at here? I mean there’s sort of hiring hiring kinds of all kind you I mean, it it reflects anyway sort of dark dark corners of the in the internet and the kind of things that you might find there.
John Marrs (09:13.71)
I’m a bit scared of the dark side of the internet. I’ve never been, I’ve done a lot of research into the dark web. I’ve never actually been on it. So don’t think I want to, I don’t think I need to. I can read enough about it to get the gist of being able to use it in stories if I need to. But yeah, don’t think I’d like to venture on there.
Rob Murphy (09:34.518)
And th th th so Damon, who’s the the protagonist, and he’s got his former partner who is trying for a baby with her with her new partner as well. so you’ve got that dynamic going on as a as well. You’ve got just tell us where his lack of memory takes him as far as you can without giving too much of the game away.
John Marrs (10:00.47)
Yeah, it takes him. So he remembers a lot of bits of his past, but not some key moments. So he knows that his parents are no longer alive and that he went into care for a while. And there was one particular woman who’s been a constant in his life, who’s been his anchor. And when he can’t remember aspects of his life, he turns to her to see if she can shed some light on it, except she’s keeping things from him as well for his own sake. There’s nobody he can really trust. Nobody he can really...
apart from his ex-wife, but how much can you trust someone who has kind of cheated on you?
Rob Murphy (10:35.7)
Yeah. I he’s he does seem completely alone and even he’s unable to rely on himself as well because he doesn’t know himself what what’s going on.
John Marrs (10:45.832)
No. The danger of writing a character like that is the reader’s like to have someone that they can identify with or just see bits of themselves in. With Damon, there’s not a huge amount, I totally admit, there’s not a huge amount you can see yourself in with him. But hopefully he’s interesting enough to keep the reader going through the next 90,000 words.
Rob Murphy (11:10.784)
And yeah, so it’s all about fractured memories and you saw also refer refer to ECT, which is electroconvulsive therapy. Did you have to do much research on that or other things? What kind of research did you have to do for for the book?
John Marrs (11:24.13)
Yeah, that was main bit of research. I didn’t really know much about it and I just wanted to see whether it was actually possible to erase bits of your past using that. And from what I gathered, some a lot of YouTube videos I watched from people who’ve had it, yeah, it definitely is possible to. And then the role of a paramedic as well. So his ex-wife is a paramedic. She’s the one who has to keep killing him and bringing him back to life so he can remember chunks of his past.
So I have a paramedic person who follows me on Instagram and spoken to her in the past about various things. And she was a big help. She would tell me what equipment you would use, what you would do, what you wouldn’t do, just to keep it just a little bit real. The worst thing I think you can do in a book is refer to something that happens in the real world, but have no knowledge of it and just make it up and see what happens. Because if I hadn’t had...
got in touch with her, probably a thousand paramedics would have been in touch and said that wouldn’t happen, they wouldn’t have used it in truly in the street, they wouldn’t have put that directly into his leg, blah, blah.
Rob Murphy (12:27.526)
Yeah. And and what what relationship do you have with research normally? Do you tend to write it and then work out what research you need or do you find yourself going down some w wormholes and
John Marrs (12:40.078)
I tend to try and write it first and then fill in the blanks afterwards. My other half, commonly known online now as Other John, he helps out with the research sometimes as well. Yeah, I find that that often works. For me, getting that first draft out there, I don’t want any distractions. I just want to get on with it. And my hands are going 20 to the dozen to try and get the words out of my head and onto a screen. I don’t want to then stop.
and think, right, I need to research how this happens. So I’ll make it up and then go back to it.
Rob Murphy (13:13.954)
Yeah. I mean it really reminded me in some ways, and I don’t know if you’ve read this book, a Patricia Highsmith book, Deep Water. with the the ‘cause it’s the the protagonist is quite is in a sort of similar situa situation, you’re not quite sure what’s going on. You’ve obviously got the water thing as well, but actually, it you know, so it it it just really r reminded me of that reading reading this one.
John Marrs (13:37.806)
that to my TBR list. I’ve been working my way through her Tom Rickley books. Fantastic, just absolutely fantastic.
Rob Murphy (13:47.65)
Yeah, they’re great.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Can I take you back then? So you as we’ve already referred to, you weren’t always a a crime writer. Just tell us a bit about your background and w you know, where where you grew up and what you started started doing.
John Marrs (14:05.806)
So I’m from Northamptonshire. When I finished my A-levels, I had work experience at a little newspaper called the Davenport Express with something like, I think it had 10,000 readers. Wow. Oh my God, that’s amazing. I remember being, was on 4,200 pounds a year, which seemed like an incredible amount. Yeah. And I was there and I jacked that in after about two and a half years, went backpacking around America for a year, came back, worked for other local newspapers, worked my way up.
got to a point where I wanted to work down in London and started working for some tabloids, doing celebrity interviews and that kind of thing. And then had an idea in about 2010 for a story. Never written a book in my life. Never had any desire to write a book. Read this article in The Guardian about a woman whose husband vanished. And thought, oh, it’d be interesting to write a book about that. And I thought, you know what, let’s just do it. Let’s just see what happens. What have I got to lose? Had a bit of downtime.
Rob Murphy (14:50.412)
Yes.
John Marrs (15:01.676)
that just got started and that’s where it all kicked off.
Rob Murphy (15:05.932)
And that was the wrong sons.
John Marrs (15:08.226)
Yeah, so that was taken on by a publisher, Thomas and Mercer. So basically I had in the space of, so I’d written three books, self-published them, had no interest from publishers. And then in the space of one week, two publishers suddenly got in touch about the books that they had downloaded and read themselves and wanted to take on. And then a couple of days after that, someone from a TV production company wanted to take the one on, see if they could do something with that.
That’s been a bit of weird old time. So, 0 to 100. It’s basically like 10 days.
Rob Murphy (15:42.326)
Can I take you back to your your newspaper stuff? Because you know, you and I worked at the same place, didn’t we, the Northampton Chronicle and Yeah. What was the experience like there? ‘Cause that’s a good place to to be a young journalist, really, a daily paper, fair amount going on. And what did you learn from the experience of writing and being I don’t know if you were ever beasted by the news editor Terry Morris like I was, but
John Marrs (16:03.694)
Oh yes, yes, think had, I think she threw something at me once across the room telling me that whatever I’ve written was a load of effing so-and-so. I don’t think you get away with it these days, do you?
Rob Murphy (16:14.936)
No. It’s a bit more touchy feely I think these days, yeah. It’s more how y feeling as opposed to do this now.
John Marrs (16:21.288)
Yeah, there will be no feeling in a newsroom. It was a really good time. It was a great way of learning about deadlines. I think it was Terry who gave me the advice that everybody has a story. You’ve just got to find it in them. So it’s a great, yeah, local papers are fantastic way to get started. Things are so different now in newsrooms. Newsrooms barely exist. So much of it is...
Just press releases or AI is quite shame the way local newspapers and been decimated I think out of the Three locals that I work for only one exists now, and when you look at that, it’s quite depressing
Rob Murphy (17:01.75)
Yeah. Did you as the ti ‘cause it would have been the nineteen nineties, wouldn’t it, when you know newspapers were big, weren’t they? That was before the internet had taken off really. and did you come did you do any crime reporting? Did you
John Marrs (17:15.96)
Yeah, so my main topics were I used to do the music pages. They gave me the business portfolio. God knows why, as I had no knowledge of business whatsoever. But one of biggest confessions is that if we were short of a story, every now and again, we’d phone up the business and say, yeah, we hear you’re closing down.
And they’re like, no, that’s not true. Where did you get that? Oh, do you want to give us a quote to say that you’re not? And then you get a page lead out of it. I’ve denied rumors that they’re closing. very much keeping going, blah, blah, blah. And then we had to do death knocks, which I’m sure you probably had to do in your time as well, which is just the worst. And then sometimes I’d go and cover crime and court cases, literally just over the road at the local court. I remember one of the, when I was in my first newspaper, the first...
case I ever did, think it was a GBH or an ABH and a guy was up in court and I knew him because what not six months earlier I was at school with him and yeah things didn’t turn out so great. The last time I saw him, he waved to me from the dock and waved back at him and we caught up afterwards which was just the most bizarre experience but then I saw him so it must have been about 25 years later on a train coming back from London and yeah.
I read up about him, just I googled him and he’d spent most of his life in prison. It had just gone so badly for him. Yeah, he must have been a really crap criminal the amount of times he’d been found guilty of something. Yeah, he was just an absolute state of a man, him.
Rob Murphy (18:46.018)
Yeah, you won’t be writing a book about his his criminal p his criminal. No.
John Marrs (18:49.582)
No, I did enjoy doing the crime stuff. Some of the court cases could go on for a very long time and you’re trying to have to keep your attention going and keep your shorthand short.
Rob Murphy (18:59.976)
Has your shorthand this is someone I ask all journalists how good was your shorthand? Mine was awful Well done. Fifth time for a hundred for me. Fifth time for a hundred I was
John Marrs (19:03.95)
110 a minute.
John Marrs (19:09.454)
But I never passed my NCTJ. No, I failed my local government twice and after that I thought I can’t be bothered to finish this. I just, it’s like my maths, I was doing my maths, maths and I are terrible. I never finished it. I never got a proper qualification. I needed a C or above. did the, it was the last year of O levels and got a D and then doing A levels, I was still retaking my maths but it was then a GCSE. All in all, I failed it four times.
Rob Murphy (19:11.918)
Okay,
Rob Murphy (19:38.166)
Is that still going though, because you’re not sure how many million books you’ve solved?
John Marrs (19:41.87)
The last count he was five point four million
Rob Murphy (19:47.776)
and in term you know, you mentioned death knocks there. I mean that there are any that stick in your mind in term ‘cause this is this is raw stuff. You know, you’re when you do that and I’ve done loads, you know, you’re putting yourself out there and and sometimes the door opens, they’re really welcoming in a way that you wouldn’t expect them to be, but other times it’s not quite like that.
John Marrs (20:06.894)
No, yeah, definitely had my, it wasn’t, yeah, definitely had my bad experiences of that. I’ve been told to f off and threatened and, but yeah, there were other ones. was the parents of a little boy who’d come in, they’d come in to put a death notice in the paper. And then as soon as there was a death notice, they would phone up to the newsroom and say, oh, blah, blah, blah. And I went around to the house a few hours later, which seems so intrusive these days.
And it was a really, really emotional story about he’d had cancer and he’d been fighting for his life for such a long period of time. And I was in tears with the parents. It was awful, it turned out was a really beautiful story and they raised some thousands for charity through it as well.
Rob Murphy (20:49.186)
Yeah, it’s incredible because you would n naturally think that the death knock is a horrible th and it is a horrible thing to do. But actually sometimes the families are really keen to speak to talk. And actually would like that that conta not always, but but but you know, you can never predict which way or or presume either, can you?
John Marrs (21:09.356)
No, I’d like most journalists, I think I hated doing them. There were occasions when we knew that the person who had died had led a, how shall we say, a colourful life. Yes. Not necessarily law-abiding. And to be honest, I bottled it and put a note through the door and pretended they weren’t in. So thought, I do not want to be at the brunt of whatever they’re going to say.
Rob Murphy (21:30.924)
No. And you moved on to ‘cause I remember because I obviously I remember you from when I was working there and you were then at the Peace World Herr On Post. But I remember that for a it was a weekly free paper, wasn’t it? Or was it a weekly paid for? Yeah. But I remember it being really inventive and that coming from you, because my my then partner, you know, y you did lots of ends and I it that would have been the time just after maybe brick pop and you
John Marrs (21:55.278)
Just before, yeah, just before Britpop started. It really, really took off. And yeah, we tried to do a lot of showbiz, lot of entertainment in it, but then we also tried to keep the local news and just, there were so many free newspapers that were not necessarily taken very seriously. And it was my aim to get that paper taken seriously and taken as competition to the Peterborough Evening Telegraph.
And it were, we won quite a few awards, our journalists won a lot of awards, a lot of our journalists went on to do really good things afterwards.
Rob Murphy (22:26.06)
Yeah. And I I do I remember you having quite a lot to do with the Prodigy, which were pretty much one of the biggest dance bands at the time. But I remember the them them having something I y I just remember, you know, this is the biggest dance band maybe in the planet and and th the local newspaper, which you wouldn’t normally put together, that there was a good relationship there, a strong relationship I think.
John Marrs (22:47.726)
Yeah, we hadn’t been there because we had someone who did some freelance writing for us and she was really into local bands and she knew a guitarist who became their live guitar, sorry their live performer with the band and so he managed to get us interviews with the Prodigy which was like, and you wouldn’t expect that with a little newspaper in Peterborough.
Rob Murphy (23:07.062)
No, it was terrific. It was great. And very inventive as well, which what I’m getting at because your writing is so inventive too, but they you know, you were showing I think the signs of that back then. There you go. I get the prodigy on after this. and and just tell us a bit about the the end how long did you work in London for and and why did you want to move into Showbiz Entertainment?
John Marrs (23:16.662)
thought about that for years but yeah.
John Marrs (23:33.742)
So a couple of my colleagues had moved. So we were at that point, we were owned by the Daily Mirror and they started a website. It’s websites in London called IC. And there’s IC showbiz, IC homes, IC news. And I wanted to work for the showbiz website. And a couple of them went down to do that. I thought I really want in there. And so I did it. so applied for the job, got it, moved down to London. And within two and a half weeks of starting there, they closed all of their websites down to pull the funding away. All right.
Oh my God, what am going to do now? But they put us on gardening leave and they must have had some money back then because they put us, so I got paid what would have been a year’s salary plus three months gardening leave. Wow. Which equated to probably about, so a bit crass talking money, but it was about, at the time this was like about 20 odd years ago. It was worked out at about 25, 26 grand. Wow. And that just was fantastic because that kept me going in London and gave me time to apply for other jobs.
and try and get my life going, my career going down there.
Rob Murphy (24:33.358)
And inter and and what was it about Showbiz that that intrigued you?
John Marrs (24:40.078)
I’ve just always been interested in it. some people do it because they have some latent desire to be a celebrity, but that’s not really for me. I enjoy meeting famous people and talking to them. And yeah, I worked for the News of the Worlds magazine for about six years. And that was all celebrity stuff back then. So that was a great way of doing it. I really enjoyed that.
Rob Murphy (25:07.522)
Who was your favourite celebrity that you met?
John Marrs (25:11.506)
Back before he had his troubles, Johnny Depp was pretty cool. Was he? So remember, we used to do a lot of film junkets and sometimes you could wangle one-to-ones. And was in his hotel room and we both sat in this double bed and he just sat there and I used to smoke back there, making me these licorice rolling paper cigarettes and just sit there smoking and talking to him like he was a normal person. And I really liked him, him and Johnny Depp were cool. Sorry, him and Colin Farrell, I enjoyed him.
Rob Murphy (25:37.494)
Really, okay. He’s a big character.
John Marrs (25:39.086)
It’s always good, because you smoke indoors back then, it was always good to have a packet of cigarettes with you and you just like have them poking out of your bag because if they’d been doing a lot of interviews, they probably didn’t get that many breaks and they’d be like, have one of those. It’s a great little way in. Yes.
Rob Murphy (25:51.736)
Yeah. Who was the biggest disappointment that you had as a
John Marrs (25:56.588)
I guess disappointment.
I think there were that many massive disappointments. There were some people that I didn’t gel with and there some people who were a bit peculiar. There was a Spice Girl, I’ve used this anecdote before, there was a Spice Girl who sat opposite me, we were in this empty restaurant, just me and her, her PRs had hired it for the day. And she released an album, I didn’t really like it, but I had listened to it. She said, what did you think? And obviously I gave her a bit of bull and said, yeah, it was great. What’s your favourite song? And I could only remember one title. And then she sang it to me for like the full three, three and a half minutes sitting opposite it.
And that was just, well, what do do when a Spice Girls song to you? So I just like gave her a little clap afterwards. Like, wow, a lot of people I know would be very envious of me right now. So that was quite awkward. There was another celebrity who, well, you get some who have not the brightest sparks in the world. And we were talking about, so who do you think is the sexiest man alive? Who’d be the perfect man that you’d like to go on a date with? And she said, Elvis. And I should have corrected her, but I didn’t.
Rob Murphy (26:42.401)
Yes.
Rob Murphy (27:00.952)
No, no.
John Marrs (27:02.134)
I can’t say there were any really, really bad experiences. There’s one interview, I walked out of an interview with Jedward once, because he was just, I had to cut it short, because there was no point. He was going nowhere. It was like talking to a couple of hamsters. It was absolutely pointless.
Rob Murphy (27:17.974)
Right. God. And w was and you’ve been doing that a good little while, hadn’t before you started writing and quite. I really wanna work long form. I wanna write a hundred thousand words on something.
John Marrs (27:40.91)
And you know, I feel really guilty often saying that when people ask me, oh, so you’ve always wanted to be, write books, I assume. No, I haven’t, never, never really thought about it. I just saw this idea, it was about a woman, as I mentioned earlier, goes, her husband’s got three to four children, husband disappears one day, never comes back, and she’s writing this letter, this anonymous letter in a section called A Letter To.
in which she talks about what happened to her family over the next 15 years and how they basically thrived without him and they did great and how much he’s missed out on. And I thought, could be interesting from her point of view and then 25 years later from his point of view when he turns up on her doorstep and they tell each other where their lives went.
Rob Murphy (28:24.652)
Wow. I mean but but to write a book is is good, but you need technique there, don’t you? You need A to be able to write, but B also to be able to characterize, you need to be able to plot as well. and I g I don’t know how l you know, was the book I mean ninety thousand words, a hundred thousand words, you know, it needs a structure to it as well. Did you write it with that in mind, or did you just put the words on the page?
John Marrs (28:46.604)
just put the words on the page. I didn’t plot this book. I just wrote it because there was no pressure, no time constraints. I just wrote it and saw and to see what would happen. Then there quite a few rewrites afterwards. And then I got, I decided I’m not just going to get people I know to read it and give me opinion. I’m going to ask them to ask their friends. So there’s no personal link there. They can be as honest as they want. And got some really interesting feedback and then self-published it. And,
I think the biggest thing I learned from self-publishing was obviously that you have full control, but you were responsible for publicizing this book and for getting the word out about this book. Because there are some like a couple of million books, I think every year, uploaded onto Amazon now. And Amazon aren’t going to advertise them for you. They’re going to do nothing to promote it unless it hits some of their algorithms. So I’ve got to do it myself. So it was a lot of Facebook, blog tours, that kind of thing. And then later on,
Instagram and TikTok and etc etc.
Rob Murphy (29:45.75)
Yes, and you’ve handled I mean, y your work and people who haven’t seen your social media profile, it is so in going back to being inventive. like in principle it’s so inventive and so I mean it’s an art form in itself, really, isn’t it? And lots of authors don’t like putting themselves out there. but but i it it’s so fresh what you do, I think. W
John Marrs (30:06.262)
That’s one thing I’ve learned, you have to put yourself out there unfortunately. And you have to, it’s taken a long time to learn, you have to separate yourself from the job that you’re doing. I’ve sat in meetings before with my publishers and they’re constantly referring to John Marr’s brand, John Marr’s brand. And I’m sitting there almost shrinking into myself. But that’s what it is. That’s how they see me and that’s how I learned to have to see myself.
Rob Murphy (30:29.814)
Yes. and you know, i the the the Facebook videos you do, the Instagram videos and the the the TikToks do, they’re they’re all yeah you know, there’s they’re of some oftentimes graphics, but you’re always taking people on a little journey as well, whether it be going into a a book signing or a supermarket or whatever you’re doing, it’s quite yeah. And and is that yourself and John, the other John who is key in that?
John Marrs (30:51.66)
It’s just trying to get, it’s trying to make it interesting for people. I think a lot of authors who have these social media pages, and if they’re just talking about themselves and their books and the same things over and over again, you won’t get a lot of interest over a long period of time. You’ve got to mix it up. So I like to talk to other authors. I like to talk about other novels, other stuff that I’m reading. I like to give a bit of myself away about what I do behind the scenes.
I like to try and be honest about stuff. Like there’s a piece that I wrote last night that we’re to run soon about 10 things I hate about writing that you’re not really supposed to say. And just being honest about it. But choosing how much of yourself you want to give away. don’t, yeah, we don’t put our son on there. We don’t, yeah. It’s a balancing act a lot of the time.
Rob Murphy (31:44.62)
Yeah. and so y you know, your book Career was was flourishing. So but you s you actually wrote in two styles, didn’t you? So you did the sort of crime psychological thriller ones like you know, the wrong sons and and also Welcome to Wherever You Are would that fall into that category?
John Marrs (32:00.266)
Yeah, I guess so, yeah, that would be, yeah.
Rob Murphy (32:01.846)
And the one was the first no I’m not huge on this, but speculative fiction is something So firstly what is that? And and just describe it to people who who aren’t sure.
John Marrs (32:07.406)
I’m not addicted, so...
John Marrs (32:14.06)
If you’ve ever seen Black Mirror, then you’ve got an idea of that kind of style. it’s speculative fiction. Sometimes people call it sci-fi, but I don’t like the word sci-fi because for me, sci-fi is more about kind of interplanetary wars, et cetera. So for me, it’s like speculative fiction, five minutes in the future. So it’s using, there’s like a backdrop of technology, but it’s all about the people and how they respond to what’s going on in these slightly futuristic worlds.
Rob Murphy (32:39.808)
And I mean that was huge, wasn’t it? It sold over a million thirty five languages.
John Marrs (32:45.088)
Yeah, that’s been translated into about 40 languages, I think.
Rob Murphy (32:51.31)
I was looking at 65,000 ratings on Amazon. That is. Yeah, amazing. It’s just incredible. Yeah. one of the books that I loved of yours as well is which I think is my favorite title of not just your books, but pretty much any, but What Lies Between Us. It’s just such a clever title.
John Marrs (33:10.926)
I like, I like, I’m gonna say I like that title. A lot of the times I can come up with titles by myself. Sometimes I can’t, but that one was one of mine. I was quite proud of that one. One of my books was from, was it last year, called You Killed Me First. And I thought of the title before I thought of the book. These words suddenly came to me, okay, I like this. And how do I get a book out of this? And then had to go backwards and then plot the book revolving around the title.
Rob Murphy (33:36.152)
Yes. What what would you say your books all have in common, be it because they’re all standalones, aren’t I mean you’ve got some sort of repetition with the characters, including in the last book as well, but but they’re largely standal they’re all really standalones. But what what themes, what w what do you what w what feel, what mood, what what charac what do you have that are w you would say are in all of your books?
John Marrs (33:59.95)
lies, secrets, psychopathic women and stupid men and people making the wrong decisions. That’s what I would say.
Rob Murphy (34:12.3)
What and why crime? Because you could have written about anything. You could have written about showbiz, you could have written about business, you know, having your your extensive knowledge of but you could have written about anything. Why crime? What is it about crime?
John Marrs (34:20.247)
business portfolio.
John Marrs (34:29.454)
It’s fun, it’s absolute escapism, isn’t it? Most of us lead pretty normal lives. We take our kids to school, we eat dinner together, we go away on holiday, we watch TV in evening, we do ordinary lives. And I think crime is, if you’re lucky enough not to have been a victim of crime or you’re just your average Joe, it’s not a world you’re part of.
but it’s interesting to read about and to put yourself in these positions and think, well, what would I do if I was in that situation?
Rob Murphy (35:01.794)
Have there been any cases or criminals or detectives over the years that you’ve seen and maybe not given you the idea for a story, but given you the idea of something that happens within the story?
John Marrs (35:14.202)
I think there’s a book, The Stranger in Her House, which was about an being conned by a man who moves in and pretty much takes over her life. That was inspired by a true life crime story in a documentary that I podcast. I can’t remember the name off the top of my head. And Keep It in the Family, that was inspired, the mother and the father in that book were kind of loosely...
based on Fred and Rosemary West. And I read one of their children’s autobiography, which is absolutely fascinating to just try and get a little bit more of an insight into the characters. And book that I have coming out next year, I used to, I hired the services of a retired detective just for the legal side of things, just to make sure that everything was okay in there, just to make, yeah, like when it comes to police interviews and what they would do. Because again, like I said about.
paramedics earlier, I don’t want to make a mistake and look like an idiot.
Rob Murphy (36:15.734)
Yeah. And d and you spend a lot of your time writing crime. So for example, if you’re writing Dead in the Water, you’re spending maybe a couple of hours or a few hours a day writing that. But of an evening, would you read a crime book or a true crime book or watch a documentary? What’s your relationship with the culture side of side of things?
John Marrs (36:34.362)
I try and watch utter garbage on television sometimes just to try and switch off from what I’ve been doing all day. It’s difficult though because there’s so many books that I want to read as well and trying to find the time to do everything is just impossible. I don’t watch a lot of true crime documentaries anymore but occasionally I do to just sometimes it’ll just give me like a little insight maybe into the minds of some of the baddies that I write about.
Rob Murphy (37:03.808)
Yes.
John Marrs (37:05.174)
Yeah, watched a very good drama on ITV recently which was based on a book by someone you might know. Yes, we binge watched that, really, really enjoyed it.
Rob Murphy (37:14.926)
Well thank you. my involvement is actually quite is quite slight. It’s down to the the the screenwriter George K. It’s i it’s his achievement.
John Marrs (37:21.166)
Yes, but you have your name on the screen. And so when my series, The One, was on Netflix, you know that part of Netflix at the end of an episode and there’s that little bar that shoots up and it goes onto the next, click it for the next episode, or it automatically does it. My name is on the screen for a split millisecond before it goes onto the next episode. I was always really paid off about that. So I’m quite envious.
Rob Murphy (37:43.166)
right, okay. Well you know, five point four four mil books sold. so you I mean, you mentioned the one there and it’s the tenth anniversary coming up, isn’t it? And you’ve or or it is so you’ve got a special edition. Tell us about the special edition.
John Marrs (38:00.504)
So my publisher came to me and they didn’t, they weren’t even aware of the date. They just wanted to refresh the cover of that and another couple of books and to try and make them feel a little bit more, more with it, more modern. I said, well, if you’re to do that, how about I, I I don’t want to write a sequel to it, but how about I follow these characters 10 years later, cause it’ll be 10 years since I self published that book and find out what, what happened next to them. And they’re like, my God, yes. So for the first time in years, I’ve read the book and
I had an idea of where they were gonna go and it was, think, about 2,000 words for each couple, so it’s about 10,000 extra words in there now. an author’s note as well about what’s happened to me over the last 10 years and what happened to be specifically with the success of the one and my memories of writing it in the aftermath of it. So that was quite good fun, quite enjoyed doing that.
Rob Murphy (38:51.478)
It’s doing super well. It’s like number fifty in Kindle as I was looking earlier too. Yeah.
John Marrs (38:55.17)
Yeah, last week and it shot up. Yeah, it’s really enjoyable to do that.
Rob Murphy (38:59.956)
And with what would it like to go back and read that now? Because since you’ve written that book you’ve written maybe another eleven, twelve books. What was yeah, what was your relationship w like with your with your earlier writing? It’s really interesting that.
John Marrs (39:14.414)
Yeah, I look back at it and there were lots of bits that I would change. So maybe some of the characters I would have altered. I like to think my writing has improved. But then I learned a lot from that book because that was the first book that had quite short brief chapters in. And that really propelled it forward. And I realised that a lot of readers really liked that.
I hadn’t realised at the time it was a leading title book. I thought, because was my first experience, because was published by Penguin, first experience with a really big mainstream publisher, that all books were like that. You released a book, there would be billboards, there’d be like a hundred train stations with posters, be on the underground, would be a Clapham train station, massive billboards.
I did an interview about it on Simon Mayo’s show because they chose it as their book of the month. Yes. And they’re radio too thick. I thought that happened with every book. So when it didn’t happen with the next book, I’m like, oh, okay. Yeah. Oh, this is a bit unusual. Very naive back then.
Rob Murphy (40:16.95)
I think actually this might be a good point to a a good time to sort of bring in, you know, just how important your your f fans are as well to you, because, you know, I know I know lots of writers, but I don’t think I’ve come across a writer who’s got the same sort of depth and feeling towards them as as you do. I was at the book party event in Bristol mm a few months ago and there was some really top crime writers there in the room.
And I knew you were gonna be there. So I like looking around, where’s John? ‘Cause I hadn’t seen you for for many years. And I thought, he’s not coming. So I I left. And you were outside. You couldn’t even get in because of the queue of people waiting to see you.
John Marrs (40:54.318)
It’s because I don’t really do that many events. I’d rarely do them. This year I’ve decided I’m going to do three. I thought I’d give it a go, see if I can get away with it without being cancelled. But because I don’t do a lot of events like that, people can either buy my sign books from my website or they have to see me wherever these rare appearances that I do make.
And so yeah, was a bit mad that book party. I got there at eight and I didn’t get into the venue until about just after 10 because people kept coming out with books and I didn’t want to say, look, I’m going inside now and be all precious about this because they’ve been waiting for ages.
Rob Murphy (41:31.49)
Yeah. Well it’s incredible. It shows the depth of, you know, love that people that your read readers have for you. you know, the brand you
John Marrs (41:38.198)
I it’s, yeah, I try and talk to them a lot on social media, try and respond to their comments on Facebook groups or on my own social media. I always, at the back of my mind, remember that without them, I would not be doing this. I would still be talking to someone from Love Island or The Only Way Is Essex about their latest clothing line.
Rob Murphy (41:59.534)
You’d be speaking to Jedwood and cutting short lanes.
John Marrs (42:02.542)
God no, please God no.
Rob Murphy (42:05.344)
I need to ask you ‘cause I know I’m sorry to ask you a question you’ve been asked a bazillion times, but chapter thirty nine. How important is that to the mystique to the to the the where did that come from? And when you wrote that, of course you couldn’t have understood just quite where that would have gone, but but just tell us what chapter thirty nine is, but you can say the word if you want, but where it’s led to, you know, the kind of feedback you’ve had from from chapter thirty nine.
John Marrs (42:33.55)
So it was in a book called, The Keep It In The Family, and the preceding chapter, you just found out that a character had been exposed for having an affair. And so chapter 39, I thought, right, I could write his entire response and how it made him feel. And I thought, actually, you know what? What would be more fun? So it was just so that that page simply read, chapter 39, Finn, fuck. And that was it. The rest of the page was blank. I didn’t think any more of it. I just did it as like something to amuse myself. And then the book got picked up by an American.
a Facebook group called Psychological Thriller Readers, which have some like two million members now, they, posted it, and then someone else posted it, and then they found it funny, and they’re, oh my God, what books this, what books that. Up until that point, I’ll be honest with you, Rob, the book was doing okay. It had sold probably about 60,000 copies in a few months. It was okay, but maybe not as successful as my, if I know, about 600 copies in a year, which is not as successful as my other books.
And then this just snowballed and snowballed and it became a thing. And there were hundreds of posts on it. People got tattoos of chapter 39 on their arms and legs. In America you can have like personalized registration plates in your various cities with chapter 39 on. Chapter 39 themed parties. Someone in a Halloween costume dressed as chapter 39. And all of that, that book is now my biggest seller in the UK.
So much more than the one. So that sold like about 850,000 copies now. And that’s why social media to me is so important because it’s really helped push my career in a different direction. And that’s why talking to people and have been accessible is really important to me.
Rob Murphy (44:21.794)
Yeah. And you’ve and I know you’ve mentioned you’ve got the book coming out next year, but in the meantime you’ve got you’re trying something new as well with your novella. Just tell us you’ve got a character called Brenda.
John Marrs (44:31.768)
Yeah, so my editor, Thomas and Mercer, which is owned by Amazon, they do, I think, Amazon Original Stories, where basically it’s just on ebook, just ebook and audiobook, and it’s a short story, about 25,000 words, and they have like, people like Margaret App would have written them, things like that. And they said, would you be interested? And I’m like, yeah, thanks, but no. Never written a short story since school, not really got any interest. Then I had a gap in my schedule for a while, for a couple of months, I thought.
I could give it a go, couldn’t I? But not tell anybody to see if it works. And so I had this idea about a woman called Brenda and a village who is constantly gossiping about her. They think she’s up to something. has visitors at her house overnight, coming through the night. I wonder what she’s doing. And I just had a go writing it and showed it to other John. It’s like, oh my God, this is really good.
So we tinkered around with it, did a few chat, a versions of it. And I said to my aunt, you know, you asked me about this, would you be interested in it? And she said, yeah, definitely. So I sent it to her and she read it that night and got that to me. And so we want this book. That was last year. So it takes that long to get a book out sometimes. And so it comes out this October.
Rob Murphy (45:45.272)
Great. And w do you think there’ll be a one off or can you see yourself doing a few more of these, maybe?
John Marrs (45:50.222)
No, this particular character will be a one-off and think there’s something else that I’ve got, I’m in discussion with regarding a not a full-length book, but it’s one of those things I can’t talk about it yet unless it actually happens. But I enjoy doing it, it’s interesting, going from 100,000 words to trying to keep a self-contained story at 25,000. It was, yeah, was difficult.
Rob Murphy (46:10.574)
Yeah.
Different part of the brain, different muscle, different different
John Marrs (46:15.404)
Yeah, try not to waffle on too much. No massive descriptions about sunsets or beaches.
Rob Murphy (46:20.878)
There’s none y you no, y your books are so fast paced, so fast paced.
John Marrs (46:25.866)
You know what, I’ll tell you a secret about Dead in the Water. So I never write consecutive chapters. I will plan a book out now, so everything is all planned and I
Rob Murphy (46:34.882)
You actually planned, you you were planned one to chapter eighty or whatever.
John Marrs (46:38.414)
One paragraph a chapter, so I know exactly what I’ve got to do, but I don’t write in order. So I’ll start with chapter 53 here or chapter 12 somewhere else, whatever mood I’m in that day, or I’ll concentrate on a particular character. And then I piece it all together at the end on word documents. And then that’s only when I work out my word count. And I thought that, I thought it might be a little bit short. I think it might, it was going to come in at about 85,000 words. And when I added it all up, it was 57,000. Really? Like my God.
How have I underwritten so badly?
Rob Murphy (47:09.391)
And this is dead in the water. Dead in the water, was it? Okay.
John Marrs (47:12.214)
Yeah, so then I had to go through it again and that’s when certain things like the introduction of an old character came to mind. Yes. And that changed the direction of the book.
Rob Murphy (47:21.432)
Yeah, well it is terrific. It’s a terrific read. I I can’t recommend highly enough. And who for you ad is as is doing it at the minute, for you crime writers, who do you think is at the top of their game? Who do you like to read? Who do you think is in who do you get inspired by?
John Marrs (47:39.746)
I have three favourites that I’ll always go back to. So, Kara Hunter, who writes the Adam Foley series. There’s nothing she’s written that I’ve not enjoyed. I remember getting a really early copy of her very first book and I was like, okay, I’m already going to be a lifelong fan. The American writer Peter Swanson. I think he does great crime thrillers, love him. And Lisa Jewell as well. I think you can go wrong with Lisa Jewell.
Rob Murphy (48:07.458)
And she always sounds y I think you might know her, but she just comes across so wonderfully. So
John Marrs (48:13.128)
Yeah, I’m doing a panel with her at Harrogate in July and yeah, looking forward to that. And Harriet Tice as well, who was on Traters recently. Really like her stuff, I’ve got into her since before her first book came out. And when I did this event in All Thought recently, was in the audience, she was doing The Next Day, but she came to watch, she’s lovely.
Rob Murphy (48:36.206)
Brilliant, brilliant. So can you tell us anything about your release for next year?
John Marrs (48:42.36)
haven’t got a, my elevator pitch is one line basically. Other John, he describes the book as, one day meets I know what you did last summer.
Rob Murphy (48:52.46)
Okay, well that sounds intriguing. So
John Marrs (48:54.338)
It’s more of a relationship between two people and what’s happened in the past and what’s happening in the present.
Rob Murphy (49:03.566)
It sounds super intriguing. And that’s written.
John Marrs (49:06.828)
That is, yeah, I’ve got proofread left to do and that’s it. It’s got to this stage now where if I never read it again, I’ll be fine. I’ve read it too many times.
Rob Murphy (49:17.87)
Brilliant. Well look, John Marrs, thank you so much for your time today. You’ve been as a terrific guest. Thank you so much. And many, many congratulations on Dead in the Water. It is a terrific read. And everything else you’ve done.
John Marrs (49:29.166)
Thank you, I thank you for having me.
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