E44. Iboga, Intuition & the Truth of Who You Are

What is an Iboga journey really like – and what should you know before considering one?

In this episode of On The Same Paige, Paige Leacey sits down with herbalist and plant medicine practitioner Rachel Marie for an in-depth conversation about Iboga, one of the world’s most intense and misunderstood plant medicines.

Rachel shares her own experiences with Iboga, including her first journey in her twenties and later traveling to Gabon to undergo a traditional Bwiti initiation. She explains why an Iboga ceremony can be so different from classic psychedelic experiences, why people often describe it as confronting the truth of themselves, and what she has learned through years of working with the plant.

Paige also reflects on her own Iboga experience as they explore:

💕 What an Iboga journey can actually feel like
💕 Why Iboga is different from classic psychedelics
💕 Rachel’s five-day initiation with the Bwiti tradition in Gabon
💕 The fear of confronting yourself during an Iboga ceremony
💕 Flood doses vs streaming doses
💕 Iboga, Ibogaine and addiction treatment
💕 Purging and the physical intensity of the experience
💕 The serious cardiac risks associated with Iboga
💕 Why Rachel strongly advises against taking Iboga alone
💕 Intuition, consciousness and altered states
💕 Herbalism, healing and the intelligence of plants
💕 What happens after a profound plant medicine experience

This conversation is an exploration of personal experiences and perspectives around Iboga and plant medicine. It is not medical advice and should not be treated as a recommendation to use Iboga or Ibogaine.

YOUTUBE + TRANSCRIPT:

(00:00) Rachel Marie, welcome to the show. >> Thanks, Paige. It’s great to have yarn on with you today. >> What would you say people are most afraid of when they sign up for an ABOGA journey? >> Oh, that’s a big question. Facing themselves, like facing the truth of themselves. Yeah, that’s probably a big part of where the nerves come from.

(00:17) People feeling like it might be the worst side of themsel that they have to face, not thinking it’s going to be the best side of themsel. Yeah, it’s interesting that that that’s like the common theme because I my experience with a bogger when I um set my intention it was to see myself more clearly in truth.

(00:34) And I’m really excited to talk to you today because I recently put uh an episode a solo episode online of my like me sharing my burger journey. And I got this hit of inspiration to do it that was like quite sporadic and random. I just was like I’m not going to overthink this. It’s the whole the whole journey of like a burger is not overthinking, which we’ll get into, I’m sure.

(00:53) But like I was just like, I’m just going to do it. I know that sometimes like you’re not supposed to share these things, but I’ll just do it. So, I just put the camera on and I just like started I wrote some very brief notes and I just like started talking about it. Yeah. I found that like as I was talking about it and going through the you know the little tidbits of preparation and then like what the actual experience was like and and then kind of moving towards the end of of my journey and and the integration and stuff I realized like

(01:17) what is I was like what is even the point of me like sharing this upon reflection I was like wait what was even what was the point of that whole thing like it felt so profound and like so it was so different to any other experience that I’d ever had even like reshare sharing it.

(01:35) There was this sense of like what the what even was that? And then when my editor edited the video, he was kind of giggling cuz he was like, it was so funny that like you told this whole spiel and that you were like I was purging so much and blah blah blah blah. And then when you got to the end, you were kind of like, oh, I don’t know if I would recommend this.

(01:52) I don’t even know if like [laughter] um so anyway and then I I in preparing for chat today went and like I looked at a couple other accounts of um of people journeying with a bog people that are very like much more articulate than I am and and like much better at being on camera and Rick Roll was one of them and his his journey of of uh his his recollection of his aoga journey he um did with his wife on a podcast and I thought ah that’s like it really is like something that you like you kind of do need It’s it’s so weird and like wild and and unexpected that it

(02:25) is kind of something that you need to like almost unpack with someone else. And so, not that we’re going to get super into the depths of what I was healing in my burger journey, but I am excited to have you here today with all the context of your experience working with this plant personally and then facilitating other people’s journeys to kind of like get into the nuts and bolts of like what even a boger is.

(02:43) Unpacking an oa journey really does take a long time. Yeah. Well, I’ve been working with personally and with other people for many, many years. many years of experience with it and I hear this a lot people coming out the other side and the story that they share to try to unpack the journey doesn’t make a lot of sense like it’s not a linear story from point A to point B and it’s very much the nature of this plant very underworld kind of plant >> if someone was like okay I had one question to ask you and it was what does

(03:14) bo do what is it like how would you answer that >> I think we’re like this we we want to know like wow that plant sounds interesting but what’s it going to do for me? Like put it in a little box and make it make sense. And it’s a hard thing to do as a herbalist because we’ve studied so many effects and parts of plants and it’s not as simple as the tight neat little box that we want.

(03:35) But if I were to attempt to put your bogo in a box, as much as it probably doesn’t want to be in one, uh, the journey with a boa is a journey with the truth of yourself. And it strips back a lot of our own delusions and a lot of the false truths we tell ourselves. And in that process, people come home to their bodies and home to a sense of self that’s quite simple.

(03:57) >> Yeah, I think that’s uncomfortable for people, too. We sometimes think the answers to our health issues are need to be like really big and complicated and have a lot of words and have a really big diagnosis. But from my experience of working with people one-on-one and in groups through through healing modalities with plants actually it can be quite simple.

(04:16) Like the place we arrive at can be quite free of words and quite still inside. Sometimes there’s not a lot to say about that. It’s more of a state of presence, a state of stillness. A boa is definitely a plant that whilst it can be very busy on the journey, the place that people arrive at is a place of stillness and connection to their body, connection to the truth of who they are.

(04:36) >> Yeah. I I’m excited to talk about the the the busyiness of this particular medicine cuz it is like the most like stimulating thing like ever short of recreational drugs. But um it’s yeah, it’s like wild the whole experience of that. But um yeah, I also I I think the interesting thing with like people wanting, you know, my intention was I want to get to the truth of myself and other people want that and that’s what the plant kind of does.

(05:01) But like the truth is not it’s not Yeah. Like it’s not like the way that um I psilocybin show you the truth of yourself like a boa I guess kind of has this weird sort of like you can’t really escape this the truth. It’s very embodied. Um I describe that by like sometimes arriving at a place of healing or wholeness is actually a lot about um letting go of a lot of things.

(05:26) Whilst it’s a experience of coming home to the truth, most of the journey is letting go of false truths. So most of the journey is a bit of an exorcism of the not us the not truth which is very busy. There’s a lot that we have. There’s a lot of stories we’re telling ourselves and beliefs, systems running through our minds and bodies that are not true, are not relevant to where we are right now.

(05:47) And the journey with the bog is systematically going through those things. And >> why do you think that it’s so different from other psychedelics in that way? I mean like first of all, do you even consider it to be a psychedelic? >> Not really. I technically it’s considered anogen, which is a dream inducing plant.

(06:05) And I think that summarizes it a lot more accurately, but it’s a visionary plant. So the visionary side of it can have it cross over into what seems like a psychedelic. It’s not a classic psychedelic in the way that the trypto means are that you mentioned. And then why why is it that it affects different people so differently? Like this is one thing that I heard in um you know when I was listening to Rick Roll and then Brian Hubbed and even like you know some other um like other influencers out there that were trying to to articulate their experience. They

(06:32) they had said that in being prepared facilitators had been like this you know it it has a uniqueness to it like your experience will not be um like the next person’s experience and it’s it’s like that’s an obvious thing with psychedelics even with these other ones that we take your psychedelic your experience with is not going to be like the next person’s but for a bog like it just from what I hear and from at least my own experience sharing with others that have done it it’s a different level of uniqueness person to person.

(07:02) >> Yeah, I really agree with you on that. It has a really broad range of effects and that’s partly because it has an incredibly sophisticated chemical constituency inside the plant and the receptor sites that it works on in our body is so varied is working on so many systems at once that it just the plethora of options of the effects they’re going to play out are massive.

(07:28) And plants that are really intelligent, I’ve noticed they seem to have these very contradictory effects. Like yoga, for example, is a stimulant and a hypnotic at the same time. So it’s stimulating and sedating at the same time. And it has a lot of effects that are sort of polar opposite to each other. Like it can be very visionary and it can actually also just put people to sleep.

(07:50) Yeah, there’s a lot of contradictory effects and I believe that’s a sign of intelligence like a sophisticated complex intelligence of the plant. that intelligence is going to meet the individual’s intelligence which is also quite varied. You know, we’re all at different places in life, we’re all at different ages, all have different intentions and we’ll have different health issues.

(08:08) So, it’s just there’s a lot of options on the board when the dice gets rolled. >> I think by now people will um have noticed that you have like a fair bit of knowledge about this plant and that you have a a really deep relationship with it. So, I kind of want to dial the clock back and hear a little bit more about your journey meeting with this plant and then your journey into herbalism.

(08:25) >> Sure. Well, my journey with the boa and my journey with herbalism were quite entwined actually. Like as a young child, I was always very interested in science and the arts. I was always like my life was always full of both of these different directions and I studied a lot of science and I did a lot of performing arts and singing and music.

(08:46) Uh and when I discovered plant medicine and herbalism, it felt like a world that is both of those qualities merged together. There’s like a scientific, therapeutic, constitutional side of plants and then there’s this artistic side and energetic and intuitive side and I’ve always been drawn to helping people and to wanting to contribute to society in a way that’s, you know, positive.

(09:09) Like I want to have a positive effect on the world around me. So helping people feels really meaningful to me. And I think a lot of people that really get into whatever their craft is, they have their own story with how much that craft helped them, healed them, brought them home. And when I discovered EOGA, it was like all the lights turned on for me in places that the lights were really off inside my body.

(09:32) Especially as a woman, there were really parts of me that was I was really not connected to. And Io helped me access those places. So my own personal healing journey with the plant was so motivating to learn more to deepen my practice with it and that led me to being over in Southeast Asia running an Eboga treatment center. It was really incredible.

(09:52) It was so incredible to be working with people in that terrain. I became a very permanent part of my life from there on in. >> Yeah. >> So what were you like as an 18-year-old? >> I was a traveler. I had left home quite young and moved over to Europe and I was traveling around Europe by myself doing woofing if you know what that is.

(10:10) It’s like volunteering on organic farms. Was always really interested in alternative ways of living and sustainable ways of living. So yeah, I was really just submerged inside this traveling nomad gypsy energy getting a taste for different ways of life. >> When you say that you kind of feel that like there was disconnection between you and your body, what did that look like? like what was your kind of like day-to-day what was kind of like your what did your like day-to-day internal existence feel like? I’ve always been a

(10:37) very high functioning person with a very active and sharp mind. But when I was younger, that was so dominating that it meant I didn’t have full access to some of the depths of my own feelings and I was always very fast, fast to respond, fast to think, which meant that I didn’t have access to my intuition and wisdom.

(10:57) Uh whilst I self-reflected a lot, it was there was always this pace to my mind that was so fast and it it lent towards like a high functioning anxiety. I felt racy and that I didn’t feel fully connected to my body physically. Yeah. It meant that my digestion was slow and my bleed cycles were not in rhythm all the time and it wasn’t stable.

(11:18) Like my life wasn’t stable and simple. I would just it was these two extremes. My journey with plants and especially with iboga has helped me embody all of that. so much more groundedly like that’s not really a word but [gasps] I can access the sharpness of my mind without disconnecting from the wisdom and the homeliness and the groundedness of my body. Yeah.

(11:40) >> When did you have your first kind of diance with psychedelics? >> My first experience with psychedelics I think was around the age of 18 or 19 with mushrooms. I was one of those people who would say no, it doesn’t work. Like these psychedelics don’t work for me because I’d be eating really high doses and my mind was so strong.

(12:01) It was like the state that I was in wouldn’t change. I would just feel the same but maybe a little bit nauseous. And so yes, my first experiences with all the major psychedelics were tumor cactus, iawaska and mushrooms were largely of no effect. That’s what I told myself at the time. There were ways they were working on me, but I couldn’t perceive it just because I was young and I haven’t developed my consciousness enough.

(12:27) But that really shifted o over time. Like I just stuck at it with these plants because I say it felt like something really incredible was happening with psychedelics. Like even though I was eating them at times and they didn’t seem to be affecting me, like I was I drank I was in South America and I had wuma cactus in Peru, I still felt so drawn to them like I wouldn’t give up on it and eventually the lights all turned on and it felt like the world really opened to me.

(12:54) Um, and I’m really glad I stuck at that journey and just gave it time and a little bit less pressure, put a little bit less demand on what I was expecting from the experience because now I’m actually a very sensitive person to plant medicines. >> Uh, yeah, I think a lot of people will be able to relate.

(13:09) I can certainly relate to like the fast racy mind like trying to overintellectualize things. I think that that’s a, you know, an interesting crucible. But just in life in general, like if you over overintellectualize like your relationships, your you overintellectualize any experiences, it tends to like change the frame. Yeah.

(13:27) It’s almost like you can apply too much meaning to things and then they become meaningless. So where did a bog come into the journey? I was around 23 years old when I met somebody who told me all about a bog. I wasn’t super interested in it at the start. Like I felt really cautious about it.

(13:43) It sounded very strong, very intense. Eventually, I felt like I’d like to try this and I sat myself for the experience. I had a friend like a sitter with me. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> So, I was a little bit like a pirate at that age, [laughter] a bit of a rebel. And um yeah, I did my research on it and got access to this plant and I had it in my living room.

(14:07) It was really intense actually. So, I understand why I was being cautious about it. >> Yeah. Like we would not con recommend that for for anyone. Like it’s >> I don’t recommend anybody do that. I try people out of that. >> Oh, do people do people come to you and they say that that’s what they’re going to do? [gasps] >> Well, sometimes I hear people say, “Oh, I’d like to sit myself.

(14:25) Have you got any advice?” And I always say, “I don’t recommend sitting by yourself.” [laughter] >> Yeah. My advice is don’t do that. >> My advice is no. >> Oh, no. I feel like cuz we’re putting this on the internet, we just got to be really clear. there’s like a high cardiac risk and it’s just you got to like make sure that you are doing it, you know, in within Yeah.

(14:42) a setting that where where like you’re completely safe um and held. >> Absolutely. And the plant can be sometimes sold and it can be cut with other plants and it can be not the root bark. So, there’s just safety things that go on that mean that is it’s essential to be using this plant with somebody very experienced and trustworthy.

(15:02) So anyway, but you went you went ahead and had your like um >> yeah had your experience by yourself. How did it go? >> 2013 or something and there weren’t YouTube videos on you know the Joe Rogan hadn’t done that interview on it yet. There was very little information about it in this like pop culture way. So just to put it in context, it was a very different time in the psychedelic scene.

(15:23) Uh it went really really well. I guess it was I was able to understand my mind and myself a lot better from that experience. And I came out the other side being able to change the way that I think in very deep and impactful ways. I felt so supported in in changing very stuck habituations in my mind. I was given so much grace and I felt like something was helping me change.

(15:48) >> Wow. Just from the one experience. >> Absolutely. Yeah. >> Oh man. Do you remember how much you took? I had about 20 g of your burger. >> Okay. >> Right. And how long was the experience? How long did it go for? >> It went all night and for the next day and I was still vomiting the next day and putting myself back together. Yeah.

(16:11) I was able to meet a part of my mind that was such a villain to me, like such weaponized language that I would use against myself. And I was able to realize how much I thought I was strong in ways that were actually just so stubborn and not good for my health. I guess I kind of thought I was getting away with things and just having personal thoughts that were quite negative and they weren’t impacting me.

(16:36) But after that experience, I learned to really really love myself and take care of myself so much. >> Wow, that sounds like such a big experience for a 23-year-old to have and like such huge reflections to to be able to have at that age. Why did you end up pursuing knowing more about this plant? Cuz I guess there’s two options if you have a profound experience with a plant is that you go, “Well, >> that was good and that was it and that’s all that probably needs to be done there.” Or you I guess like you get

(17:03) curious and you follow the thread. So how what happened for you with the following thread? >> Well, I was studying my herbalist degree at the time and there was this plant presented to me that was helping me grow so incredibly. And at university, no one was talking about that plant. It wasn’t mentioned in herbs for addiction treatment.

(17:22) It wasn’t mentioned in herbs for mental health. And so I was really curious about what this plant is and what its place is inside the apothecary. >> I I’ve heard you talk about that you you actually went to Gabon to meet with the the traditional the custodians of this plant, the the Buii people, and you sat with them in in like the most traditional context um of this plant.

(17:42) What was when did you do that? And like what was what was that like? I hadn’t ever thought I would go. It’s not something I planned to do, but an opportunity was presented to me to go to a village there and they hadn’t ever sat with westerners before. So, we were going to be part of an inaugural kind of experience of bringing Westerners into this village.

(18:02) Something just like sparked online inside me that was like, you’ve got to go. And I didn’t really know why I wanted to go because I wasn’t working on anything in particular. I was in a really great place, a really grounded place inside myself and working as a body worker and working as a herbalist and really enjoying life.

(18:19) So I wasn’t sure why I was so called to go. It just felt important on some level. For the 6 months before Gabon, I went to three bases and I started really training myself cuz a part of me knew this was going to be an initiation like no other. And it was an experience of a lifetime. I I’m really glad I didn’t know what I was in for because I came back very very changed.

(18:42) There are these moments in our life where it’s like you know BC and AD and that was one of them for me that was like before Gabon and after Gabon. >> Okay. Well, what what happened in Gabon? >> We went through an initiation ceremony. I can only speak for the ceremony that I went through. They’re all quite different.

(19:01) Like bui is very vast and has a lot of different expressions as a religion and a culture. And I just needed to be really clear that I don’t speak for witty. I whilst I’ve been through an initiation I don’t live a life as a witty person. So my understanding is very limited like I am such a novice but um I can share from my experience.

(19:19) There was time just in the village before and after and then the ceremony was 5 days. Yeah there was there was so much that went down in that ceremony like your journey it can be hard to really make sense of it in like a linear way >> because the nature of this plant is so hypnotic. like one loses track of time and loses track of a lot of things and on the in the physical world to be able to journey to such depth inside oneself.

(19:42) It’s hard to exactly explain what happened but the person I was on the other side it was shattered and completely broken open. I’ve never experienced such emptiness and brokenness in my conscious life than I have the day I came out of the initiation. The healing was like the rebuilding of myself that happened after that.

(20:03) And the person I was able to build and grow is somebody who was no longer a girl but a woman and somebody who is resilient and strong in ways that is still soft and able to experience a vast emotions without um abandoning them for the intellect of my mind. Yeah. That’s like a brief of the effects that happened from the ceremony. you you’re you’re saying like it broke me and and I was empty and it it’s almost like giving like weird sadistic torture vibes, you know, and and and you had to like withstand such like extreme I mean torture is a very intense word, but I

(20:40) mean like it it almost like it feels like I’m curious like what happened that was so um intense that made you just have to like surrender in a way and then um come out the other side with this like new capacity to do that. >> Initiations are always orals. You’re sort of part of the process. And those orals often involve very physical things like fasting and staying awake for long periods of time and being cold or being challenged physically.

(21:09) And it’s like through the overcoming of a sense of physical limitations, we’re able to expand ourselves into ways spiritually and mentally and emotionally that we didn’t have access to. Ultimately the idea of an initiation is a stage change and a state change from one stage in life to another stage of life. So it’s a developmental and that’s definitely what it was for me. So wasn’t torture.

(21:32) I chose to do it. The important thing though is that when you open a door like that to a right of passage in that way you have to walk the whole way through the door. I knew I had to walk the entire way through this process no matter how challenging it was. And that is where I’m able to access my strength from a place I can access inside myself.

(21:49) I will never forget my initiation and I will never go through that again. Uh the ceremony itself separate to the aogga just the actual ceremony was challenging and then the added layer of eating a burger on top of it. You know in ways it might have made the ceremony easier. I’m not sure exactly [laughter] but um but yes like iOS is it’s not the central part of the ceremony that I went through.

(22:13) It was secondary to the actual experience of dancing and fasting and being awake and sleeping on the earth and other parts of the ceremony and those were very physically challenging. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean that’s like my experience of of of even a boger in the like limited one ceremony that one flood dose that I’ve sat was was was that like it’s you know you Yeah.

(22:35) And I talk about this in my video of just like the the purging like the level of purging. I’ve never I felt like my body was being rinsed out like a wet tea towel and I couldn’t have imagined having to do anything else feeling like that like having to dance having to sit up sit up straight having to like you know are you able to share some of the physical things that you had to do >> was on the fourth night of the ceremony so I was definitely in extreme sleep deprivation by that point haven’t I hadn’t eaten food or slept until that

(23:09) point. There was a part of the ceremony that involved not drinking much water at all. Like we didn’t have access to our own water. So I was deprived of a lot of things that I used to nurture and ground myself by that point. And at that point I was invited out to dance. It was actually such an incredible experience.

(23:25) If there was a part of the ceremony that I would love to live again, it was that moment because I was able to lose myself in this style of trance dancing that was part of this village. they dance in a certain way that will trigger um a trance. I was able to go into a trance state, a waking conscious trance state that I’d never accessed before.

(23:45) And it was all of the aspects of the ceremony coming together and the eoga coming together in that moment. And it’s hard to describe what that feels like exactly, but it’s like being inside and outside of the body at the same time. Yeah, that particular village and bui sect that I was initiated into is a possession trans cult.

(24:03) So that’s a big part of their medicine. They they’re known as mabi. They’re a female lineage of your bogo. It’s called the feminine way and just all about that state. It’s actually considered very healing state to tap into. It’s like beyond the mind and very embodied. It was so incredible. I the people in the village that I was in, they entered into those trans states regularly.

(24:24) They would wake up in the night and they were in the trans state and making certain noises that would suggest that they were in this trans state. And it was really normal that spontaneously walking down the street was like a dirt track, somebody would could spontaneously be going into this trans state. And I didn’t know that I could access those kinds of states.

(24:41) >> Wow. So you you say it’s a maternal um like it’s a is it a matriarch? Like the women are in charge >> part of the village? Yes. There’s a male cult and a female cult in that area. Like there are so many bui. I just need to say that that it’s like there’s so many sex and subsects of bui that it’s quite complex.

(25:00) But the one that I was working with, Mabanji, is a female cult. So it was led by eight women. But there are also men that are initiated into Mabanji. There was the doctor from the village was also Mabani. It was more heavily female dominated. >> What were the women like? Those eight women that lead the the cult. >> Yeah, I’ve actually written a bit about this because they were not at all what I imagined.

(25:22) I was like, “Oh, going over to Gaban for the female way. This is going to be so great for my femininity. >> [laughter] >> These women were so strong, like so staunch. I mean, upon meeting them, I had to sit on the ground and kiss their feet and bow to them. Such authority in who they were, who they are as people. There was a grandmother who had initiated the most people in the area.

(25:43) And then there were seven other women who were all Naganga’s head healers. They had so much authority. They were definitely matriarchal. >> Okay. So, it’s not like it wasn’t like they were, you know, Yeah. welcoming you in, giving you a cuddle, like a cup of tea, you know, it was really like it sounds like it was very much about you, you just you respect them, like you you just have no choice but to respect them.

(26:06) After I went through the initiation, I did experience a lot more softening and compassion and the things I would associate with femininity. On the other side, um the women who led me through the initiation were hugging me and laughing and we’re very much closer emotionally. But yeah, beforehand they were very intimidating, very strong women, very resilient women.

(26:29) >> Do you think that they had a sense of like who’s this little white chick coming into our culture and thinking she can do our rituals? >> I really don’t know. But there was a whole mix of reactions. Um I remember the day I was going into the initiation ceremony. I walked down to the river just to have a moment and someone came up to me, a lady came up to me on the street and she knew I was going through the ceremony and because we had such big language difference, she was like sign languaging to me and she was just sign

(26:57) languaging out what I was going to experience that night, which was mostly me vomiting and then I’m going to go crazy and then she was just laughing her head off at me. [laughter] It was very funny. [gasps] >> Oh my god. Yeah. I guess that’s like something you can only really understand in retrospect.

(27:14) She’s just like throwing her hands around and then when you reflect you’re like, “Oh yeah, that’s >> that was pretty much it. >> That was it.” [laughter] [gasps] Um I am curious to know like what is your understanding of like the way that it like makes you purge because I think with the plant medicine you often hear like oh the purging is because you’re getting rid of dark energy or it’s because you’re you know there’s I I I feel like there’s a lot of like really high level explanations for why you might purge on plants but I’m wondering

(27:41) what your opinion is of that given that you’ve done all this work with particularly a boga which is a particularly purgy plant. The way that you described it feeling like you’re being run out from the inside. >> I really see that have seen that with people and experienced that in myself. What feels like a detox of individual organs >> at times.

(28:03) >> I have never experienced in a plant that allows such deep purging of the body. Like it’s not just vomiting some liquid off the top of your stomach. It’s so deep where the liquid comes from. It feels like there’s a huge cleanse going on inside the body on physical and emotional levels and I can’t help but think it’s very connected to the content of the material that’s coming up in the journey.

(28:30) There is a bacterial layer and a candida fungal layer going on that’s happening as well with the purging and the and the gut >> like it’s getting rid of that. >> Yeah, there’s some research explaining that a boa works on gut health and IBS and is antiandida. So there’s some things definitely going on in very physical bacterial layers of the gut biome.

(28:49) >> Yeah. I’m just like, how did anything survive? Like [laughter] my >> it’s like a bomb. >> It’s so I guess I [snorts] I also just want to say like I mean it’s worth saying cuz if people are listening to this and they’ve got this far, it’s probably cuz they are interested in some capacity and and maybe this is something they should or should know, but I’m going to say it.

(29:05) So it’s like the ringing of the of the tea tower, but it’s also like the ringing and then like as if you would slide your fingers down to the very end. That was like very much my experience of purging. And I’ve been sick in my life, you know, with food poisoning and I’ve lived in lots of different countries and I’ve never purged like that ever.

(29:22) >> Yeah, I hear you. >> That’s a great analogy. [gasps and laughter] >> So, did you have a purging time when you were being initiated and then having to get up and dance and and like stay awake and sit up straight? >> Eventually, the purging stopped. There was one night of the experience that was very poy for me, but for the rest of the 5 days, no.

(29:42) Did you how much do you think that you had across the 5 days? >> We ate ate a burger most days and nights, but it was very spread out the dosing. Overall, it felt like the equivalent of one strong flood dose spread out over 5 days. So, the experience was very amplified by the music and the lights and the the party that was going on like the all night session is very celebratory and the whole village is there and people are singing and dancing and there’s a fire going.

(30:09) It’s very loud music, very fast rhythms. So every everything about the set setting amplifies the medicine so that yeah it’s not it’s not still and quiet. It was very very noisy. >> Do they worship a particular god or a deity or do they have a religion um that that kind of like ex for them like explains the purpose of a bog or >> I’m not sure if I can fully answer that but they are ancestral cults.

(30:36) So they are ex divining with their ancestors and ancestors are considered to be closer to us than God because they remember being human. So it’s a it’s a source of consciousness that we can access that’s more relevant to being human our ancestors and ancestors of the land and ancestors of place. Have also heard it said from Abuiti Naganga that Iboga is considered a sacrament that helps us um divine or communicate with the consciousness of the forest.

(31:04) It’s like it’s the consciousness of the whole forest embedded within this plant. >> So you said that after this particular initiation you were completely changed and I’m I’m wondering like from the first time that you took it as an 18 uh sorry as a 20 no as an how old were you when you >> 23 >> you were 23 when you first took it and 27 when you went to Gabon >> and like that first time you said it really like the light switched on for you and it it changed you but you pulled on the thread ended up in Gabon.

(31:29) like what was the the the deepening of of your relationship with this plant as as you like kind of like traveled through life? It >> was a different level of change. Yeah. Different stages of development. I do think there is a place that we can land at where we just feel really whole in ourselves and we don’t really want to reach for things.

(31:49) But when we’re in a culture that has systemic sickness, like when the mainstream has a lot of toxicity in it, we we keep being reininoculated by that. So healing remains to be re very relevant for each of us. And when I came back from Gabon, I was able to access stillness in a way I had never been able to sustain. I remember waiting every day that some at some point I’m going to feel stressed.

(32:13) At some point I’m going to feel anxious about something. At some point I’m going to feel worried. And it just never came. And it wasn’t until somewhere between 6 and 9 months after the initiation I remember an experience happened and I felt stressed. And it was the first moment I had felt fear, worry, stress, any of those sort of negative emotions.

(32:31) Um, I’d never experienced that kind of consistency of groundedness where my inner terrain was solid. It was like I was the root system and nothing would shake me. Eventually, like the stresses of life did creep back in, but I’ve been able to understand now that like that state is completely accessible.

(32:49) It’s a choice. The first flood dose I’d had when I was 23, it was more about just cleaning out my mind and kind of accepting and understanding who I was. But none of those effects would stay with me for long periods of time. It was after Gabond that that part of my life was just buried. And I just I felt like I I you know went to the grave and buried that part of me and really let her go.

(33:11) >> That makes sense. I um I have a teacher and she has this analogy of like you you can get into these points in in your life where you feel like you’re in your own basement and in your basement are where all of your um negative thoughts will arise and and those particular like loops that you get stuck in and and it’s good to know like oh I have a basement number one and number two like know oh I’m in the the basement okay that’s why things are the way they are right now is like I’m in the basement but like as you

(33:42) do more healing work or more self-reflection and more of these like initiatory rights of passage, your basement, it’s almost like the the contents of the basement changes and so you can still go into the basement, but it’s like the base level of the basement rises. >> Yes. Yes. I always explain as being a master adaptogen.

(34:02) It’s an incredible plant to learn how to respond to stress. I’ve heard people say that the the phrase God circled this place on the map for me. And it’s it’s a way to just be like, okay, I just am where I am and it’s it’s perfect and it’s fine. And so much of our suffering comes from like trying to not be where we’re at.

(34:17) And in my boa journey, like I it took me a while to realize that like I do have a tendency to always look for something negative. And so when I was purging for literally 24 hours straight, I was struggling with that because I was like, “This is so negative. This is such a [ __ ] experience. my body can’t handle this.

(34:35) Like I’m doing damage to my insides. I’m um I just want to be tripping or like I want I want I want it to be different. >> Heard the Matsis tribe or the Matis tribe in the Amazon say that we choose to do hard things and then life is easier rather than we we choose to do easy things and life is harder. >> Do you think that that’s the way that medicines like Kambo and Sunga work? cuz I like to think that there’s like some like there’s some like bioactive peptide level to them so that when you’re doing Cambo or sunga it’s like it’s actually

(35:04) cleaning something out rather than just being like hey have a horrible experience so the rest of your experience is less horrible. [laughter] I think both are going on. But if it’s just like the reference point of like at least I’m not doing cambo right now. Like [laughter] yeah, I I think like I had to do some Cambo in the leadup to my um not had to.

(35:24) I chose to do some Cambo in the leadup to the My Burger Ceremony was like recommended. And I thought as as I was going through those those journeys, um the first one was like really gnarly and then the second one was more gnarly. But I can remember in the second one being like, “Oh, you know, remember you don’t have to do Cambo all the time.

(35:42) You’re just doing it right now.” And I think that that’s like that’s a good thing for life is remembering like it’s not going to feel this stressful all the time. >> Yeah. Sometimes we got to go into the basement. >> Let’s go into your experience working now facilitating a BOGO and you were in Southeast Asia working at a clinic over there where using a boa is legal.

(36:02) Um, what was the kind of switch from being a participant of these rights of passages to actually being a facilitator? What was that like? >> The first retreat that I was a part of, yeah, I was it was scary like I had to step up into a new place. I’d been helping on retreats before, so I’d already been in an assistant role and was a qualified herbalist and I had clients.

(36:23) So, I was used to being in spaces of transformation with people and being up close and personal with their health. Yeah, it was an initiation itself. Like that was big to step into a facilitator role. The first time you do anything, it’s like, oh, you just got to get the first time over with. Clients that I was working with for such great people, you know, they had done their preparation and gone through the process of being accepted in and they were all in a good place to work with the plant.

(36:47) And it was incredible. It was so incredible to see people as they arrived and then to see who they were leaving as and to stay in touch with them over the 3 six month period afterwards and hear the significant changes that were staying in their lives. >> What kind of incredible transformations did you see? Anything notable? >> Yeah, I was working with drug addicted people.

(37:08) So there was addiction detox happening and to see people come back from that and to move through that and to arrive at a place where they were drug-free and they maintained that state for some people forever and some people for months and years afterwards. Burger really also works on the emotional and psychological layers of addiction.

(37:25) So people were confronting themselves and confronting their own lies and confronting their own truths as well as detoxing the drugs out of their system. So, it’s very incredible, very holistic retreat center. >> It sounds lovely. It also sounds quite bougie. And I’m just wondering the clientele that came were they sort of from a a socioeconomic class of people, a particular economic class of people.

(37:49) >> It was definitely wasn’t like super low so socioeconomic class because they had to buy a ticket overseas and be able to afford that. But it wasn’t super bougie. Sue was kind of in the middle. It was a real mix. And what was the most common addiction? >> We worked a lot with pharmaceutical addiction, SSRIs and um antiscychotics or anti it’s like antisycchotics but anxiety pharmaceutical medications.

(38:16) It wasn’t like people that you would consider as like classic drug addicts. They’re people that are addicted to drugs and no longer want to be on them and they’re prescribed them from their doctors. with the the intensity like of the the stimulation you know like it it creates this ringing in your ears plus you’re also if you’re in a ceremonial capacity um you’re listening to the to the buoy music which is quite stimulating I know from reading about um Iberane it’s uh similar to the like the ringing in the ears is similar and it’s

(38:45) a very just like intense sensorial experience like what do you think is going on with that >> I do believe there’s a lot of reorganizing of the senses and the inputs that we’re receiving from those senses happening to the body. Yeah, it feels like a recalibration of sensory input. I don’t know if you know about sensory gating channels or that term, but it’s said that we are mitigating the information that comes into our system at all times.

(39:12) People with autism and other high functioning states are letting in a lot of information, especially through their hearing, but also through other senses. And psychedelics specifically change how we receive those inputs. And I think it’s like a recalibration. Like states of trauma are blocking out or letting in a lot through our sensory gating channels.

(39:32) And it’s like these plants are tuning the radio station. So that we can start to pick up on the backdrop of the world that we may be blocking out due to trauma, due to things that we’ve been through that keep us safe. For some people, we’re they’re letting in far too much information to feel regulated. I believe that the sensory overload that happens during especially is a major recalibration of >> Do you think that that’s why it works so well with the dopamine um like the reward system? Why it’s got such um

(40:04) potential for working with drug addiction and like also addiction to ruminating negative thoughts? >> Yes. Yes. It does so much resetting of hormonal pathways. And I mean, we’ve all experienced dopamine deficit just from like having too long of a binge on some medial game on one’s phone or the Doom scroll and the next day there’s dopamine deficit.

(40:26) It’s like I’m just not getting enough feelood chemicals to feel motivated or focused. And for people that live in those states from addiction, they just have lost baseline. in Eboga just so much repair work on the hormonal pathways that to within a weekend to be able to recalibrate right to a sustainable flow of dopamine is incredible is so incredible to feel balanced in one’s sense of seeking and receiving.

(40:56) Um I’ve also heard like not many people talk about the the streaming dose. Um, you hear a lot about the flood dose, the flood dose, flood dose. But something that, um, I’ve, uh, spoken to you about before, like had questions on before is this this idea of a streaming dose. And why is it that it’s like that’s not more of a thing that people talk about when they when they share their ABOG experience or like share the way this medicine works? >> I think it happens with the kind of medicalization of how plant medicines make their way into Western culture. It

(41:25) happens through the science. that happens through the treatment of very severe health issues that don’t have other treatment options available and it tends to be the bigger doses that have those healing therapeutic effects to detox off of opiates requires a very large dose of iberain and ioga but to work on other health issues like to have a conversation with oneself it doesn’t require a flood dose and that’s why the streaming dose is amazing and so that’s kind of only trickling in you know the people still think of a bogger as like

(41:56) but I don’t have an addiction So why would I work with it? It was not originally used for addiction. You know, we don’t use it for addiction as their first point of call. They use it for the celebration of their culture and for the development of their maturity, which does not require flood dosing in the way that >> heroin detoxing does.

(42:15) So the streaming dose is really relevant actually to a whole lot of other people who aren’t working with hardcore addictions. >> Yeah. Like what what are the things that can happen? like what are the risks that that people take when they a do it by themselves or b like do it and are not um completely honest about their lifestyle.

(42:32) >> The worst case scenario is that that it causes cardiac arrest and people die. So that has happened when people have not been honest with themselves or others around what going on in their lifestyle, what they’re using and consuming. Bogger is a major amplifier. So it amplifies and interacts with everything else that’s going on in the body and it ne negatively interacts with almost all drugs because it makes them stronger.

(43:00) So if one were to combine a boa with any of their usual pharmaceuticals or um illegal drugs, it would amplify the effects of those drugs so that they would become toxic. It’s actually quite hard and maybe even impossible to go through an initiation without somebody being a guide because there’s certain thresholds that we can only cross when someone is there showing us the way and holding space for the safety of our body to cross that threshold.

(43:27) So whilst we can they can be really healing therapeutic effects on streaming dose levels. They’re not good to know that’s not an initiation. initiation challenges the body and your mind in a way that you actually feel like you’re confronting a death, an ego death, a death of something and that does always requires a guide.

(43:47) Yeah, I was I was warned that it’s possible it won’t work for you. Um, is that has that been your experience that like one in five people just don’t react to the plan? Yes, but maybe the percentages might be a little bit different, but 10 to 20% of people that could be realistic seem to not really be able to communicate or work with the plant in a youthful way.

(44:06) >> Yeah, I can imagine. Like, so that would be so disappointing. I mean, I was I was petrified that that was going to be my reality. And I guess that’s also something to look at too of of feeling like with psychedelics, you can feel you’re so hopeful that it’s going to be a silver bullet or um or you know on the flip side, you’re approaching it as as if it’s some kind of achievement.

(44:29) >> Yeah. Yeah. And that’s something we have to keep dismantling as individuals that we are complex, the plant is complex. It’s not going to be a really easy solution. It might be incredible and make amazing change, but it’s it’s going to be you that’s doing that work as well.

(44:48) And those expectations and hopes, whilst so beautiful, can really stand in the way. >> Can you say more about intuition? Your relationship with your own intuition and what you understand intuition to be. [sighs] >> Wow. Yeah, that’s great because I just used the word intuition. So, what is intuition? >> I do believe intuition is something that is accessed from within the body, not the mind.

(45:09) And I mean, people talk about it being like a gut sense. I actually also think it’s like lower than that. Like it’s like the gut and the womb. I feel like it’s it can be both those places. And it can be a sense of what’s right and wrong for oneself, which is so useful. So I feel like in my life sometimes I’ll tune in.

(45:27) So like, is this a good decision? Is this a good decision? I almost know before I’ve even thought about it. It’s just like a feeling of like contraction and restriction >> or openness and resonance in my body. Gummy, can you relate to that? Do you experience the world in that way? >> It’s something that I’m working on for sure.

(45:47) It’s definitely um a a work in progress. I think that yeah, intuition is your sense of knowing, but it’s not the knowing that comes from what you hear, what you see, um what you touch with like your external body, >> um or what you what are your senses or what you taste. I mean, maybe for some people it it is, but like for me it’s like it’s this six type of knowing >> and it comes through a perceptual door or a perceptual tool that is >> always available and and willing to like give you information but isn’t something that you’re necessarily like taught how

(46:27) to interpret. Um, particularly in our culture anyway. I think it’s different in other cultures, but in our western secular culture, you’re not taught to like perceive that as like as valuable information as what you see here, taste, touch, >> um, [clears throat] blah blah blah. >> Yeah. Yeah. I love that.

(46:41) I I can resonate with that. >> I think it’s been really interesting is in trying to like unpack these theories of consciousness and try to understand like what people think about the nature of reality and like why um why we have subjective experience and what it even is. like that there’s a lot of like masculine there’s a lot of masculinity in that space and there’s a lot of men kind of like fighting the the intellectual battle over whether or not consciousness is the fundamental property of the universe or it is just a

(47:07) product of our incredibly complex um brain activity >> and it’s kind of this like back and forth and and I see a lot of men in the space um kind of like arguing about this but then when I reach out to women to get women to come on the show or to like talk to me about consciousness A lot of them have ended up in the healing arts because there’s obviously this question of like okay well yeah what is what is consciousness like what what does it do first can we agree on what it is and then can we understand what it does but

(47:37) then further than that like how do we apply that knowledge so that people can live better. >> Yeah. Yeah. That’s how was coming through me when you were talking. I was just feeling into myself and where I sit with it. And I’m not asking questions about what consciousness is. I’m more interested in let’s have more of it and because it makes a really great planet so like let’s keep fostering it and it’s more about the application of consciousness that interests me.

(48:00) >> Um but yeah what do you think like I guess on that note do you think that do do you think that the the world is made up of some fundamental property that we tap into? Yeah, some big questions. When I tune into consciousness and what it is, I I see it as lots of concentric circles interacting.

(48:19) So, there’s lots of zooming in and out of the micro and the macro and all of its conscious and interconnected and all all the all of the concentric circles as they’re bubbling out into the broad universe. And like as an individual, you know, I’m just, you know, one of them, one of those concentric circles along the way, but I get to interact with all the orbits around me.

(48:41) Maybe as a woman or maybe as an individual, I’m just really comfortable with the great mystery. I’m really comfortable with it being a mystery. I actually love it being a mystery, you know, like reading the most amazing mystery novel and we don’t really know what’s going to happen next. We don’t know what the next chapter is going to be about.

(48:58) Um, and we’re just like in for the in for the experience of it. What do you think about like um having an intuition for a particular like a um an event, you know, because you could you can have an intuition about what is right and wrong for you, but but there’s also this other phenomenon that’s like having intuition about an event before it happens like almost like >> predictive.

(49:18) >> Yeah. Like precognition. >> Yeah. Do you think that that’s a part of intuition as a woman or is that another thing? I it might be another thing, but I would say that to develop it or to have access to it is probably a very similar pathway. I mean, I’ve had moments I I have those moments so regularly where I’ll tune into dates or think about if I’m going to run an event in the future or if I think I should go to that event.

(49:43) And I mean, the most recent one, I was invited to help run an event. And I sat with it and I said to my partner, I don’t believe this event’s even going to be happening. And so I pulled out and I just said, “I just cannot put energy into this because I just don’t even think it’s going to happen. My body’s just saying no.

(50:01) “ And 2 months later they canled the event and it was a big event and I was like, “Oh yeah, like I felt that.” And how do we why do we make sense of those kinds of experiences? I’m not sure, but I felt like that was part of my intuition. I sat with my senses and I really tuned in to spaceime and me and what’s right for my path and it just wasn’t resonating.

(50:21) it just felt non-existent >> and then I just transmitted that into words and pulled out. >> So, I don’t know. Great mystery that we live in. >> And and when I when I hear things like that, I’m like, “Oh, man. Are you tapping into like some base level reality or like you’re tapping into like some something that was always going to happen or did you decide that it wasn’t going to happen and then you create your own reality?” >> Right.

(50:47) Was my disbelief in the event happening part of why the event didn’t happen? I don’t know. chicken and the egg. But this [laughter] is >> that’s like a valid valid question, you know, of like what Yeah. What’s what comes first? Is it >> is it the you as the creator of your reality or are you tapping into a reality that’s already been created? >> Yeah.

(51:08) How much are these two interplay constantly? >> Do you how do you make sense of it? Do you make sense of it in a way that’s like, oh, it all kind of tracks? >> When I look back over my path, I feel like I didn’t have a lot of agency. It was as if some I was moving through a body of water that had a current and that was not negotiable.

(51:24) But with by following that current I found a lot of agency but it’s like agency within a constricted space. >> Yeah. Something something I have experienced is that I experience more freedom by having more containment >> and which is this weird dichotomy or contradictory thing but when the world is completely open and expansive the paradox of choice means that I actually feel overwhelmed and I feel like I can’t make choices and I lose freedom because of it but when I’m more restricted to my path my soul stream the agency that I

(51:58) experience within that containment is somehow like predetermined freedom. [snorts] [laughter] >> Mhm. Mhm. >> Yeah. There’s this physicist Sarah Walker and she has this beautiful um analogy for for that. She says that like we are um yeah, we we are um a a beings of agency. I’m going to like fully bastardize her words, but anyway, if anyone’s like into that stuff, she she does a podcast with Lex Freiedman.

(52:26) She talks about free will on it and she says we are um we have agency because as humans we’re very deep in time. We’re not deep in space. Like a human object is not large compared to like a country or a planet. It’s like you’re a small object, shallow in space, but you are deep in time.

(52:47) like for a human to have and she’s a theoretical physicist by the way. So like this is pretty cool. She um yeah to to to have arrived as like the being that I am as the being that Rachel is like that has been that has spanned across a a very significant amount of time to get to you right now. And in that period of time there has been a lot of selection.

(53:10) And so the selection has had to like go like beep beep beep. Oh my gosh. Is this good for evolution? No. take get rid of that. Is this good for evolution? Yes. Keep that. And then all of a sudden we end up with Rachel Marie. >> But so there’s agency in that, but we are that that’s happening to the to a backdrop of random chaos.

(53:27) I’m wondering like as a herbalist, what you might be able to say about a generation of women experiencing a particular ailment with a a specific gland in the body and what that might mean on an energetic and spiritual level. And then also like what could be done about it for women who don’t want to go down the western medical path of being medicated because of their thyroid dysfunction for the rest of their life.

(53:50) >> In my observations and client cases over the years, I’ve worked with a few people with thyroid disorders. They’ve always been women. It interacts with a lot. It’s sort of like not one thing itself, but it’s almost like the flow of energy within the body as a regulatory pathway. Chinese medicine looks at it as regulating chi, regulating vitality, regulating energy.

(54:14) And it plays a huge role in the speed of processing, the speed of digesting, the heat, the rise and fall of heat and temperature in the body. Temperature is said to be one of the first responses that our body can respond to things in with rises and falls of temperature. So, it’s a very like fast processing capacity. The thyroid has that.

(54:33) And then also it’s like on the neck and it’s like right here like so connected to our voice. So connected to a transmission and it’s a little bit like a satellite. It’s a receiver and a transmitter at once. So has a really interesting role and it’s hard to like pinpoint how would that come into dysfunction? Why would women potentially have more of a susceptibility for that part of that organ system to need tending to? I would my I would intuitively think it is intrinsically linked with speaking the truth and giving voice to our inner

(55:09) terrain and feeling safe to do that. Gabbor Mate has done a lot of research on the overlaps between disease states being a woman or being a man and cultural and gender roles within society and how we are susceptible to certain diseases by being certain kind of personality types even. >> And he’s specifically shown how women h with trauma have susceptibility towards certain diseases.

(55:39) like it’s very much connected to some kind of regulatory energy. A lot like the nervous system that’s receiving information from all of the body and then making decisions about the state like the homeostatic state of our body because of that. And to be able to speak our emotions and to speak our inner terrain somehow helps all of that so so incredibly.

(56:05) Um, so we know what can women, what can people do to help support their thyroids? There are specific herbs that help that and yeah, they can all be looked up and worked with a naturopath or a herbalist and you know seaweeds and things like this, but that the thyroid is so connected to the state of kid the kidneys. It’s so connected to the state of the fight or flight system in the body which is connected to worry and fear.

(56:30) So to work on those emotional terrains will always have a very positive impact on that organ system. I have seen one specific client of mine with thyroid issues who did all of the diet who did all of the breath work and the sauners and over organic lifestyle and overhauled everything and all the thyroid herbs. And it actually for her it wasn’t until she landed in herself like emotionally really really connected with herself that her thyroid issues became inexistent not a problem.

(57:03) It was the emotional work that she did that I we saw the most incredible results with. >> Um okay one final question before I let you go. Uh this one is another very specific question but do you believe in the existence of a god? Oh, as an intrinsic intelligence embedded within all organic life. Yes. Yeah.

(57:23) Like not as one individual kind of thing, but decentralized a decentralized living intelligence then. Absolutely. Yes. >> Yeah. Cool. Um well, thank you so much for I feel like I’m I’m wondering is there like more to go into with that the with the god question or do we just leave it at that kind of like yes. decentralized intelligence [laughter] within the nate the fabric of the universe, not some guy with a beard.

(57:53) [gasps] Okay, cool. Well, um, thank you so much for your time. This was an incredible conversation. I was so excited to talk with you. Um, where can people find you if they want to follow your work or get in touch for a herbalism consult? >> Sure. I have a number of different expressions.

(58:14) This is my personal website, rachelmarie.com.au. And that’s where I do my work with people as a herbalist and a body worker and a coach. I also have a website that I sell plant medicines through things that I’ve extracted. They’re all such delicious tinctures for different health issues, digestive, nervous system, really beautiful handcrafted medicine.

(58:35) That’s nthobatanica.com. and I’m in the process of birthing my new project that’s a company a herbal medicine company that’s all handcrafted here in Australia and we’re aiming to hit the mainstream and really teach people about plants and the living intelligence this decentralized god force that is especially thriving in the plant world and that’s all happening right now and that’s called folk herbals >> cool well I will put all the links to that in the um description below and um yeah people can can chase after you. The

(59:07) the plant medicines though that you sell like are um all legal. There’s like no no psychedelics. Just for anyone that clicks on the YouTube and is like sick is my new dealer. No, it’s like senena and boansana and like my enthome botanica project is very focused on shamanic medicines all legal versions blue lily lotus saffron mucuna all very powerful plant allies and our new project folk herbals is mainstream herbalism is like really it’s targeting all the major kind of mainstream health issues that people have depression

(59:41) anxiety digestion hormones and we’ve got amazing blends that been working on for a year now and they’re rap to perfection. >> Yay. Well, thank you again so much. Um, and yeah, if anyone wants to follow you, I’ll put the links below. >> Thank you so much, Paige. It’s been really lovely having this chat with you.