“Great parents are made, not born”

“I’ve heard the claim that parenting doesn’t come naturally to men because they lack the biology for it. That belief can make business and policy leaders reluctant to invest in policies that support men’s involvement in childcare. But new research can help us shift that narrative by showing us that great parents are made, not born.” – Dr. Darby Saxbe in Dad Brain: The New Science of Fatherhood and How it Shapes Men’s Lives

What does the paternal brain have to do with women’s health and stress? Um… everything?

When we assume there is something innate to the maternal brain only or a sex-specific biological driver underlying a female compulsion towards caregiving, we get into an especially sticky narrative of moms/women do this, dads/men do that. It’s not hard to see how this narrative tracks towards stereotypes and gender norms and policy structures that conveniently ignore the ways men/dads care (and are fully capable of caregiving) while overloading women/moms. Why do we need paternity leave when women have maternal instinct? Why support child care policy when mom is the best caregiver a kid could have? Etc. Etc.

Darby’s research on the paternal (caregiver!) brain and the transition into parenting has always fascinated me for the narrative busting gap that it fills. So it was an absolute delight to get an advanced copy of her book Dad Brain: The New Science of Fatherhood and How it Shapes Men’s Lives to see how she weaves all of this together. Spoiler: it’s brilliantly done.

Highly, highly recommend this book. On pre-sale here and available widely on June 9th. Just in time for Father’s Day!

It was super fun talking with Darby on our Substack Live last Monday. Catch up with the recording up top, the (lightly edited) transcript below, or the audio version HERE. So many options!

Hi, Darby!

Hello, I’m so happy to be here!

Quick intro: This is Dr. Darby Saxbe. She is a clinical psychologist and a professor at USC Dornsife, and her research focused on the transition into parenthood. Darby is also the author of the book, Dad Brain: The New Science of Fatherhood and How it Shapes Men’s Lives coming out on June 9, and she is the writer behind the excellent Substack Natal Gazing.

Darby, this is part of your Substack book tour!1 Which I love that I’m a part of! Really quick, do you want to give a quick book plug?

Ok, the elevator pitch: [the book] is about how fatherhood changes men’s neurobiology, and it draws on work that I’ve done in my lab at USC over the last 15 years or so, but it’s not just about my research, it’s also about the evolutionary history of fatherhood. What creates sources of variability in fatherhood, and how does fatherhood impact man’s mental and physical health? And then also kind of zooming out to look at society and public health and workplaces, and why do fathers matter, why do kids benefit from father involvement, and how are our changing conceptions of masculinity shaping how we think about fatherhood?

You did such a good job with how it all flows, how it builds, how it pulls together the topic in small and very broad ways. And in a very impactful way. You did a fantastic job. Get Darby’s book, it’s so good!

To start, because I can’t help myself, I’m going to bring women’s health in just a little bit…

One of the first times I read about your research in a way that demonstrated the broader impacts of the work was when I was reading Chelsea Conaboys’ book Mother Brain. She had this great chapter on maternal instinct and how it’s less about a natural instinct that women have and more about the overemphasis of studying the maternal brain in the context of care. How defining the biological basis for “instinct” came out of looking at this with a one-sided view and how that one-sidedness set up what we think of as maternal instinct.

The funny thing is, this is probably the only field of research where the gender imbalance is over-indexing on women! And yet [the research] still has a negative effect on our perception of women and women’s health.

[When it comes to paternal brain research], you’re super clear up front in your book about where the gaps are, where the limitations are. You can probably count on your hand the number of people who are doing work on the paternal brain. I would love it if you could talk a bit about the false narrative that gets set up due to the lack of research in the field that you work in.

Great question. And just like you said, if anything, a lot of biomedical research has prioritized men’s bodies, even our animal models, our rodent studies, usually use male model animals. So there are these huge gaps in our understanding of women’s health and women’s brain health.

Where there is not a gap is in parenting and motherhood. So much of the literature on parenting is focused specifically on moms, and dads are totally missing from that. I think it does drive this perception that there is an innate, pre-wired maternal instinct that is completely unique to moms. And that makes people not want to support policies like paternity leave, even paid child care, because there’s the primacy of mom’s experience that is centered in our scientific understanding of child attachment and the brain, the parenting brain.

What I say in the book is that there are some things that are distinct about moms. Certainly if a woman has had a biological pregnancy, we see her whole body transform, and there are enormous hormonal impacts of that. But a lot of what we think about as the maternal brain is really the parental brain. As humans, we come equipped with this built-in set of systems that can adapt to care. It doesn’t necessarily require a biological pregnancy to unlock those systems. It might just require motivation and proximity to an infant, and that might be a better fit for how we evolved to parent, which was more collectively.

As special and important as mothers are (and I would never want anyone to take away this work or dis on moms), I do think that when we assume there are certain things that only mothers can do, we start to get into narratives that can be constraining for both men and for women about what kind of roles we can occupy in the world and what kind of life plans we can envision for ourselves.

I love how you have this overarching theme to your research, especially when it comes to fatherhood, that “great parents are made, not born.” You do bring in how, for those who carry a pregnancy, there is a level of priming. Priming – I love how you use that word – your body, your brain, it’s ready for the next stage [when you go through pregnancy and birth], but that’s not the whole picture, right? You still need to add in parental experience. You talk about the importance of touch and engagement and how really anyone can be a caregiver, not just the mom who gave birth.

There is no part that’s pre-wired. The part that is built in is the capacity to adapt. We have flexible brains. That’s a superpower we have [as humans]: our flexibility. We’re sensitive to context and we have sophisticated cultures that shape our behavior, so the part that is fundamental is that we can adapt. Then the inputs and the choices we make are up to us in our societies.

I want to point out that I love how you stay true to Darby, the scientist, in the language you use, and the way you explain how a lot of this research is emerging, and that it will continue to build on itself and change. [The research] is young, it’s new, and it’s interesting, but also… take it with a bucketful of salt (or however you phrase it specifically).

“When we assume there are certain things that only mothers can do, we start to get into narratives that can be constraining for both men and for women about what kind of roles we can occupy in the world and what kind of life plans we can envision for ourselves.” — Darby Saxbe

You bring in the very cool study with your collaborators in Spain, looking at how men adapt to parenting and how their brains change [in American vs Spanish fathers]. With the comparison there is also the added difference of who has access to time with their infant in these early days. With the Spanish fathers, there has been this big culture shift, a big policy shift around giving dads leave time for infant care. We can talk about that study a bit more but where I’m really curious is the way this highlights the level of variability in studying dads and studying dads’ brains. You have the basic questions of who gets paid leave but there are so many levels of variability between individual dads that you cannot control for.

How tricky is it to actually study the human dad brain? And in a perfect world, what would be your absolute ideal study to really tease all of this apart?

Oh, great question. I love that question. I actually wrote a whole grant proposal for the Simons Foundation where I enlisted about a dozen other parenting brain researchers to put this big proposal together to follow expectant moms and dads across to parenthood in multiple sites, from East Asia to South America to Europe to the States to Africa. Really look at some of these cross-cultural differences, policy differences that are so interesting. But it’s exactly what you said, the variability in fatherhood is what makes it such an interesting and rich topic.

With mothers – I say this in the book – there’s a high maternal investment. Part of it is because pregnancy is so calorically expensive and by the time you’ve delivered a baby, you have already devoted a ton of resources to making that birth possible. So it’s pretty rare (and, of course, there are exceptions to every rule) to find mothers entirely abandoning their babies. When that happens, it means something really wrong has happened.

A third of kids in the US live in households without resident fathers. Fathers who never meet their child, never even realize they’ve caused a pregnancy. Then we also have fathers who are primary caregivers, sometimes sole caregivers of kids. That range is massive. And a lot of that range is determined by local social worlds. The resources getting into the needs of different cultural niches. Do you have specialized roles because you have hazardous ways of getting calories for your society? Or do you have ways of getting calories that are much more shared? That determines how much you need dads to pitch in with kids.

This is what’s interesting to me about contemporary society. We’re in flux. [There’s the] very gender specialized, neo-traditional model of what the family looks like, and there’s the model of a more egalitarian, high hands-on involvement from both parents. You and I have both written about gender and marriage and how hard that can be because we’re in flux.

I think there’s a lot of confusion about what men and women should be. Do women want a mate who’s a high earner and fits that more traditional model? Do they want a mate who is really invested in the household and in childcare? Frequently women want both. And then what are young men hearing that they need to be?

It’s hard because often our society tells men they need to be the really specialized breadwinner, and yet their partners want them to be the attentive caregiver. Sometimes it’s hard to have both of those in the same person.

You brought it up a bit earlier and in your book how, even thinking about the model for human evolution, hunter gatherer societies, if you look for biological determinism (in terms of men do this and women do that ), you’ll find at our evolutionary roots, that there is still variability. Even across different hunter gatherer societies. Something that you bring up that I really appreciate is that when you look at the culture and the differences between those cultures, it’s more about the societal structure and what kids need in that societal structure that dictates how care is performed by fathers and mothers, right? Like, the Aka, The dads are very hands-on and often 100% the caregiver. And then you have other societies where it’s completely opposite. You can’t even really build an argument on what humans should do. We still have so much variability.

And, as you mentioned, it seems like we’re in a particular moment of societal structure in flux now?

Yeah, I think we are in flux right now, and that’s one thing that creates a lot of tension and conflict, the different expectations. You can start to see patterns to explain in what context dads are more involved and what context dads are less involved. It’s about: how stable is your society? What do you need to do to help your kids thrive? What does resource gathering look like? Then you plug that in. Not in a way that gives us universals, but at least it gives us some ability to make predictions.

There’s a moment in the first chapter, where I am interviewing an author and anthropologist who has studied the Aka for many decades, where I ask: why are the Aka such good fathers? Compared to this other culture where dads don’t even pick up their babies in the first year, why are the Aka better fathers than those dads? He said: Well, they’re not better or worse fathers. The guys in the other culture who go off hunting and bring home a lot of calories are actually providing their kids exactly what they need to survive in that niche, right?

“Good father” depends on what is important for kids’ well-being. We’ve shifted our model away from having lots of babies with the hopes that some of them will survive to adults; that’s what you do at a high stress, like low resources – spread your seed as widely as possible. But in a more stable society, you want a reproductive strategy that’s based on quality – have a few kids but you put a lot of investment into them, so that you will maximize their chances of thriving. You’re not doing survival-focused parenting anymore, you’re doing thriving parenting.

Where you land has to do with risk and stability in your society. That’s also good for determining paternal investment because do you want a high testosterone man who’s out marauding and seeking to attract mates? Or do you want someone who’s actually going to be home helping keep the baby fed and alive.

One of the things that I very much appreciate from your research is how you also look at the health and well-being of the dad and the mom and the whole family thriving.

And a lot of your studies, and the way you talk about in the book (and correct me if I’m wrong!), has this end result where everyone’s health benefits when dad steps into care. It’s not a one-fo- one, pass-something-off-from-mom’s-plate-so-dad-can-suffer-too. It’s more that when you take something off her plate, not only does she do better, but you [as dad] do better too. It’s interesting to think about how this also relates to just perception of support, whether or not you are getting things off your plate, the feeling that you are supported in this way also boosts everybody’s health and wellness and outcomes!

Was there a study or a finding that, when you saw the data, you were like, “oh, that I didn’t see that coming!” or “that’s really interesting!”?

Yeah, it’s a great question. There are a lot of pieces that have surprised me. And I think that’s exactly right. There’s a lot of evidence that father involvement improves maternal mental health outcomes. [When they] expanded paternity leave in Sweden, you started to see fewer mental health prescriptions being filled in new moms. There is this really interesting link. My lab has found a similar result with postpartum depression and the link to father involvement. It’s protective for moms. And we know it’s good for kids. There’s a lot of research on the benefit of father involvement for kids.

A cool surprise that has popped up in a few of our studies is that there really are these benefits for dads as well. We did study on division of baby care where we parents were predicting how they were going to split up care [before birth], and then we looked postpartum at what they were actually doing. When dads were doing more care postpartum, when they were more hands-on with the infant, they reported a better adjustment to parenthood, less parenting stress with better outcomes, and the relationship quality was better.

I think these benefits relate to this cultural default that moms are going to do everything and so anytime you have dads doing more (not necessarily more than moms, they’re just closing the gap a little bit) it’s improving moms’ outcomes. It’s also opening up new experiences for dads. In all my reporting and talking to different dads, it’s been a pleasant surprise [to hear] just how much meaning men derive from parenthood and how much satisfaction and fulfillment they find. We do have this bemoaned [men’s] loneliness crisis and dearth of meaning, and I ended up centering the last chapter of the book on this idea of purpose, a sense of legacy, meaning-making, those essential ways to feel good about your life. I think men today, contemporary men, are getting a lot of that from fatherhood, in a way that the classic, checked-out dad of the ‘50s wasn’t getting.

Something you bring into this (and it so nicely aligns with the post that I sent out last week about stress and sleep) is dad’s involvement with nighttime tasks. You talk about the emerging research and how brain changes that facilitate the transition to fatherhood may be different when it comes to taking on nighttime tasks versus taking on daytime tasks. There is also the discussion of how, when fathers participate in nighttime tasks, everyone sleeps better. Everyone sleeps better! I thought that was really interesting.

I think there are a couple reasons for that. One (and there is a little bit of research on this), dads are a little less anxious or hyper-vigilant around some stuff related to kids. You’ve written a lot about mental load and parenting and the stress of worrying about your kids, whether it’s because of socialization or other factors. I think dads can be a little more chill at bedtime in a way that can be good for kids’ sleep. That’s one way in which dads can provide a complimentary role, but it’s also about how a father’s involvement reduces stress in the whole family system. Stress is bad for sleep.

But it’s good news for welcoming dads. It’s win-win across the board.

Exactly, win-win, take on nighttime tasks. Also, as it relates back to paid leave and parenting – it’s important to get the experience with infant care and nighttime infant care, early on!

“A cool surprise that has popped up in a few of our studies is that there really are these benefits for dads as well... When dads were doing more care postpartum, when they were more hands-on with the infant, they reported a better adjustment to parenthood, less parenting stress with better outcomes, and the relationship quality was better.” — Darby Saxbe

So, I have this running theory that because moms and birth parents and lactating parents generally have more access to do the early infant care, it sets off this trajectory of who’s the go-to parent, whose brain is re-wired, whose ears are more tuned to crying, who is more at-the-ready to jump in and pick up the crying baby, whatever it may be. It’s the access to exposure that sets parents onto these trajectories towards primary or secondary parent, and that further bifurcates the who takes on emotional labor later, who’s more attuned to empathic stress and the awareness of how kids are feeling. Do you think it’s all connected?

Oh, definitely. I would say that’s probably one of the biggest themes in my book. A lot of these neurobiological adaptations that make us sensitive parents come online when we get time and practice, and so when we separate out who gets the time and practice in ways that privilege mom, then we’re putting dads at a disadvantage. There are also a lot of ways in which men and women are socialized differently, and there are some biological differences too that inform this that affect parenting roles, but that window of early experience is [important]. If you were going to plan an intervention to change some of these dynamics, you might want to zero in on that. And, in fact, a lot of countries have introduced these nudge or incentive programs that encourage men to take a certain amount of earmarked leave in the first year of a kid’s life.

Norway was one of the first countries to introduce this in the early 90s. They had paid leave available to men, but only 2% of fathers were taking it. When they created a program where the couple gets a certain amount of leave, but some of it has dad’s name on it and if dad doesn’t take it, it disappears. All of a sudden the rates of leave-taking jumped hugely. That’s because it de-stigmatized taking leave for men who often feel like they’re going to get blowback or negative consequences at work, that they won’t be taken seriously by employers if they’re taking time off. Instead it’s this benefit that the whole family loses if [men] don’t take advantage, it compelled more dads to take leave.

Then it spread to all these other countries. Quebec is doing it, Sweden, and other Scandinavian countries, Denmark just introduced it. So far, the results have been somewhat promising, the dads develop a lot more confidence, and it actually predicts some of the division of labor a decade or more later. It also predicts relationship quality and marriageability. So, if we want to keep the divorce rate low, these are really good policies. An intervention.

If you want to boost the number of babies and you want to encourage marriage and keep relationships intact, here’s what you need to do, America!

When it comes down to the who takes on what in co-parenting, one of the things that has come up (well, at least, it’s something that I have brought up!) is how time use data shows that fathers are taking on a lot of the “fun shit” when it comes to time spent on caregiving for their kids. When we think about gender stereotypes, there is this idea that dads are more inclined to play, they are the ones excited to take their kids outside, they’re the ones going on adventures, they’re the ones roughhousing. This came up in your book as it relates to the research studies showing the differences in how a dad’s brain lights up in response to their baby versus a mom’s. Even in this, though, I appreciate how you call out that men and women are more alike than different when it comes to the brain. That there is too much overlap that you can’t really say one goes this way and one goes the other. And when you are talking about play and gender, you need to add in the societal and cultural reasons that boys are pushed to play in a certain way and orient towards “boy” toys, while girls are pushed to girl and mommy toys. When these kids come into parenthood, they’ve already been socialized to take on these gendered roles. And their brains are socialized too.

At this point in time, if we’re starting to move towards a gender stereotype breakdown as a society, would you expect to see roles merge a bit more? Maybe a broader view on the who takes on what expectation when gender stereotypes start to dissolve?

If you look at what’s actually happening outside of the discourse and look at things like time diary studies and what people report they’re actually doing, you see that men are more hands-on as parents. They are spending more time with kids and they are doing more than just the play. The stereotypical dad is the play parent, and in the book, I write about how there is some cross-species evidence that males do play in different ways than females and that’s really good for kids, that different style is beneficial. But there’s also the piece that it’s easier to be the play parent when you aren’t doing the day-to-day care, when you’re swooping in after work to do something fun.

If you look at Millennial or even Gen Z dads, they’re reporting that they’re doing more diaper changing, they’re more likely to do homework with kids than dads of a generation ago. They’re more likely to do what’s considered basic care, like feeding, dressing, and bathing. So I think we are starting to see more of a convergence of those roles, and I think that’s good. It takes stuff off mom, and it gives new experiences for dad to feel more bonded to his kid.

The funny thing is, reading the description of gendered play part in your book (and this is a sample size of me, so take it with a grain of salt) I was thinking, “wait, I’m the one who roughhoused and wrestled my daughters, I’m the one drags us out for backpacking trips!”

But that also comes through in the point you make about the narrative. That it’s not just the cultural narrative that has set up the expectations, but also the way research separates who gets measured in the who does what framing. You make a point of saying: it’s more important to refocus on parenting and the multiple styles of caregiving. It’s the multiple styles that are important. And that is independent of who does what and why. It’s more about the variety in parenting styles that is important, right?

Right. Kids benefit from getting different kinds of experiences from different caregivers. It’s great to have a cuddly mom and an active, playful, vigorous dad. It’s also great to have an active, playful, vigorous mom and a cuddly dad. We learn from that variety and those different kinds of social inputs. There are some predictions that we can make, hypotheses based on knowing somebody’s biological sex, but we can’t actually know exactly how any one parent is going to be. Some of the most anxious parents I know are dads.

It’s okay to have the dad as the cuddly one and the mom as the rough housing one. You also bring this into the conversation about male:male / dad:dad households. How the different styles of caregiving show up when there is no mom in the house. In a great way.

There’s this really cool study I cite in the book that looked at how, if you designate gay male dads as “primary caregiver” and “secondary caregiver”, their brain responses to kids actually fall along what we would consider to be gendered lines of maternal and paternal responses. So it’s not about gender at all. It’s about what role you play in care.

Ok. Let’s talk narrative change. You weave this throughout the book.

There’s a need for a change around the narrative of caregiving. Especially when it relates to how we value care, how we see it as a natural thing for men and women, and how we invite men in.

“Kids benefit from getting different kinds of experiences from different caregivers. It’s great to have a cuddly mom and an active, playful, vigorous dad. It’s also great to have an active, playful, vigorous mom and a cuddly dad. We learn from that variety and those different kinds of social inputs.” — Darby Saxbe

Reading some of the earlier chapters, I was thinking, oh boy, this is fodder for some clickbait titles for the manosphere: “Fatherhood: Your Balls Will Shrink and Your Testosterone Will Drop!’” When it’s a matter of virility that’s scary stuff for these guys, right? With the clickbait world, how do we invite men in knowing that, low testosterone is actually good in the transition to parenting, and smaller balls is actually a reflection that you’re gonna be a good dad.

What do we do with these two sides?

I really wrestled with that when both initially getting the book deal, and then when writing the book, because I didn’t want it to just be bad news book for men that would make guys feel like parenthood is going to kill my masculinity.

It’s important to say some of these adaptations are very mild and nuanced, and also short-term, we do see rebounds. And there’s all evidence that (even though some of the brain changes associated with first-time fatherhood seem to be linked with mental health risk) in the long-run, for dads who’ve had more kids, there’s actually a neuro-protective effect on the brain.

It’s risk and opportunity. Vulnerability and also benefit. Anything that’s formative is going to change us, and it’s going to come with costs and benefits. That’s one reason I tried to end the book on the meaning and purpose and connection and legacy chapter. And on healthy aging. I talked about the aging brain and parenthood because I thought it was important to have a takeaway that felt more positive.

But I do think that manosphere stuff is really interesting. I ended up doing a whole chapter on masculinity (and it wasn’t a part of the original proposal) because I felt like there is so much happening around masculinity discourse. Part of it is our political moment, our leaders, we have a president who openly talks about certain politicians being “low T”, you know cabinet members who are taking testosterone and workout regiments in blue jeans It’s this whole thing where all of a sudden the he-man version of manliness has become this cultural phenomenon.

It’s a very hollow and limited cartoon character version of masculinity and not one that necessarily fits in with what makes for the best life for men. Every dad I talked to said: the most valuable part of my life, the thing that has given me the most meaning, is my caring for my kids. I heard that from my own dad about my relationship with him. So when we listen to the manosphere influencers, whose whole message is: you can’t trust women, if you get someone knocked up, she’s just gonna cheat you and steal child support, and you should have as many Only Fans model girlfriends as possible, but don’t respect them… It’s all this stuff that’s antithetical to forming healthy relationships, and yet we know that good quality relationships are probably the best things we can invest in to have a good long, late life, right?

That’s longevity!

Isolation is a huge health risk factor, especially for men. Men who are socially isolated have some of the earliest mortality. So if you want to think about men’s health, think about relationship health, not just muscles and supplements and protein powder. It’s about this richer understanding of what makes for a good, quality life. That’s embedded in our connections to other people.

How do we bottle up and package Care as a longevity supplement?

Oh, that’s a fun question.

Can we make a protein powder called Care?

Yes!

We should do an Instagram campaign where we’re selling Care as protein powders!

I talked to Richard Reeves, who’s at the American Institute for Boys and Men. He’s written a lot about packaging fatherhood to make it more appealing to young men. Like, what if, instead of like soft, cuddly stuffed animals, all the imagery for fatherhood was around boot camp style?

It’s all hard things, punishing work, you’ll be sleep-deprived, you’ll have to push yourself to the limit, but you can do it! That’s a framing that could appeal.

“Anything that’s formative is going to change us, and it’s going to come with costs and benefits.” — Darby Saxbe

The parenting advice industry is solely focused on women, so it’s important to think about how we bring men into the conversation better.

I pulled this quote from the end of your book that I think fits this well with the what’s the next step? question: “What if we valued men’s contributions to child-rearing as a critical part of the caregiving picture and envisioned happy families as a public good that enriches men’s lives, too?”

(… and also…pssst…. we have the secret to longevity!)

It’s really society-wide. It’s not just about convincing individual men that fatherhood is good. As a society, how do we care about care.

That’s exactly it, as a society. You also point out, early on in the book, the ways we value care, how we see care, how we see men’s involvement in care, how we see dad and fatherhood, the importance of those views at a societal level is that it shapes policy. If we don’t value what dads bring, if we don’t value the importance of dads and their ability to be hands on with their infants, we end up with conversations like “who needs paternity leave?”

Disinvestment in care is linked to how exclusively feminized it’s been. If it’s the purview of individual women, then it doesn’t gets elevated into a serious policy consideration.

When I talked to Jimmy Gomez, the congressman who started the Congressional Dads Caucus, it was hard for him to break into policy making on paid leave programs because it was seen as a female dominant space that belonged to women legislators. They didn’t necessarily want this upstart young guy at the table. But if it’s only a conversation about women’s interests, and it’s only driven by women, then we’re losing some of a chance to see it as a collective problem that we want to take seriously with social investment, and not just through individual families.

That’s a good note to end on. Darby, this was so fun. Congrats on the book again! It’s out on June 9. A perfect Father’s Day gift!

Now let’s start scheming about our new longevity supplement: Care!

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