David Shelley: How to Get Your Book Published

David Shelley is on the show today and he’s the CEO of Hachette, one of the Big Five publishers. In this conversation, I focused on two things. First, how should writers navigate the publishing industry? Second, how does the publishing industry actually work?

Who better to learn from than someone at the top of the field? David has spent more than 30 years in book publishing, and his company sells roughly 220 million books every year, generating about $3.5 billion in annual revenue.

This conversation is super insightful, and I think you’ll get a lot out of it.

00:01:54 What publishers actually do
00:06:56 How to get your book published
00:12:00 What literary agents do
00:14:22 How to deal with disagreement
00:18:46 Making money vs making art
00:25:39 Does marketing actually matter
00:29:23 Choose the right editor
00:35:10 Should you market your own book
00:39:12 The biggest money trap
00:42:52 How bookstores came back
00:46:34 Why moral sense matters
00:50:46 Mystery and thriller rules
00:53:35 Why horror is having a comeback
00:56:56 Kids books sell forever
01:00:39 US, UK, and French markets
01:07:20 Paperbacks, ebooks and audiobooks
01:11:15 Gen Z’s return to physical books
01:17:24 Most books lose money
01:19:59 Why should you publish with Hachette

David Perell (01:54-02:13)

What do publishers actually do? If I came to you with a newly written book, what are the four or five things you would do? Couldn’t I just go to the printer, print 364 pages, package it, and send it to Barnes & Noble myself? I don’t understand why I need a publisher.

David Shelley (02:13-03:11)

That’s a great question. Around 200,000 new books are published each year in the U.S. Our main purpose is to make people realize they want your book. Considering the sheer number of books, our skill set involves multiple things.

We make bookstores want to stock your book. We design the book so consumers want to buy it when they see it. We engage with the press to generate articles, podcasts, or other media that prompt people to purchase it. We also conduct advertising campaigns to create conscious or unconscious awareness of the book.

Crucially, we ensure the book is as good as it can be before any of that even happens. That’s a huge part of what we do. And finally, we handle the actual shipping.

David Perell (03:11-03:11)

Right.

David Shelley (03:11-04:32)

I was talking to friends the other day and mentioned we have about 400 people at our warehouse. They were surprised, so I explained we ship around 150 million books a year. They asked, “Just books?” I confirmed, emphasizing that it’s a significant operation. This aspect is often hidden.

Our warehouse in Lebanon, Indiana, has an amazing, vast team that ships books constantly, every day of the week, to numerous countries. Reputable publishers can not only make your book as good as it can be, generate demand for it, and get it into stores, but also physically ship it around the world.

We work with the best printers and uphold the highest standards. Consider something as detailed as typesetting. Looking at the books behind you, you can see the quality of the books, the paper, and the type.

David Perell (04:32-04:46)

I’m looking at the colors on various books here. Some fade with sunlight, while others truly stand the test of time.

David Shelley (04:47-05:07)

Yes, we have very skilled manufacturing departments. Their job is to ensure books stand the test of time and are produced with quality. This is particularly true in the romantasy space, which is a big genre right now.

David Perell (05:07-05:08)

It’s not something I read much of.

David Shelley (05:08-05:11)

Right, but it’s a big driver in our industry.

David Perell (05:11-05:12)

I know it’s huge.

David Shelley (05:12-06:00)

Romance and fantasy. There’s a huge trend for what are called “sprayed edges.” These are the edges of a book. They started simply, perhaps sprayed red or black, which people thought was neat. Now, there are patterns. Do you have any like that? Yes, exactly like that.

Yours is a simple version, but now we have characters and more complex patterns. We even have cool Twilight editions where if you flip the book one way, you see a picture of Bella, the female character, and flip it the other way, you see Edward.

David Perell (06:00-06:01)

Oh, how interesting.

David Shelley (06:01-06:11)

The male character. It’s insane what skill and artistry can achieve now.

David Perell (06:11-06:17)

When I was a kid, there was a series you’ll definitely know: A Series of Unfortunate Events.

David Shelley (06:17-06:17)

Oh, yes, of course.

David Perell (06:17-06:19)

You guys published Lemony Snicket.

David Shelley (06:19-06:20)

Yes, we did.

David Perell (06:20-06:28)

That’s why it was top of mind. The edges on the side were kind of jagged and a little bit rough.

David Shelley (06:28-06:29)

Deckled.

David Perell (06:29-06:40)

Deckled. There’s a word for everything.

I remember picking up those books because I really liked how the paper looked. From there, I ended up reading that series.

David Shelley (06:40-06:55)

I think that is something we can do as publishers. It’s something we offer.

In terms of your question about what we are doing, that is something we can do. Self-publishing is a great option, and you could do many things with it, but it feels unlikely you could achieve that particular aspect.

David Perell (06:56-07:11)

You’ve been working in the publishing industry for a long time, and you’ve seen it from all different angles. What advice do you have for writers who want to get their book published and navigate this often daunting industry?

David Shelley (07:12-08:56)

I’m coming up for my 30-year anniversary in publishing, and my advice for writers has certainly changed during that time. When I started, my job was literally an editorial assistant.

In 1997, the internet existed, but barely. One of my jobs was to handle submissions, which everyone sent in hard copy. The protocol was two sample chapters and a synopsis. Every morning, I would come into the office, and the postal worker would deliver a huge bag of mail. I had a massive stack, which we called the slush pile, that it was my job to go through.

Fast forward to now, and I think things have become both harder and easier for writers. There are more opportunities for writers because back then, there were no digital publishing options. Digital publishing has opened up the industry significantly.

The industry used to be very gatekept, primarily by larger publishers who would read submissions and decide to take them on or not. If your work wasn’t accepted, there really wasn’t another route.

What we have now, I believe, is a more exciting landscape for writers. Digital publishing has lowered the barriers to entry, leading to many more smaller publishers. There are more startups now than at any time in my career. We also have digital imprints, such as Bookouture, our US/UK imprint, which accepts direct submissions in addition to those from agents. They operate on a digital-first model, allowing them to take more chances and risks.

David Perell (08:56-09:00)

When you say “digital first,” do you mean it’s focused on ebooks, Kindle, and similar formats?

David Shelley (09:00-10:07)

Exactly. Their commitment to authors is to publish their book in ebook and audio. They see how it performs, and if it does well, they then release a print edition.

While I’d love us to be unique, we’re not. A number of publishers follow this model, and some of our most successful authors actually started as self-published authors. For example, Callie Hart, who wrote Quicksilver, self-published and did enormously well. We then signed her up, and she is now one of our biggest authors. That is a wonderful, though not unique, story.

My advice to writers would be: do not be deterred. This might sound crazy coming from a publisher, but we don’t know everything. Even if you receive rejections from every publishing house, it doesn’t mean your work won’t find an enormous audience. Time and again, I’ve seen authors say, “I’ve had all these rejections, but I believe in my work, so I’m going to self-publish it.” There are countless examples of those books doing really well.

David Shelley (10:08-10:56)

As publishers, we often come back with our tails between our legs, admitting we got it wrong. It’s like that Hollywood expression, “No one knows anything.” My best advice to an author is not to assume we know everything.

Listen to your gut. Throughout my career, trusting my instincts has been crucial, and I pass that advice on to writers. If you feel you have a resonant story that can reach a readership, and it doesn’t take many resources to self-publish these days—it’s surprisingly cost-efficient—and you have the means to do it, then give it your best shot. There are truly inspiring examples of authors who successfully self-published.

David Perell (10:56-12:15)

I taught writing for six years, and the biggest trouble my students faced was writer’s block. They had so much trouble getting ideas out of their heads and onto the page. But here’s what’s interesting: people don’t get talker’s block. If you just talk out your ideas, it works.

That’s why I love Whisper Flow and use it for my writing all the time. It’s super easy: press a hotkey, talk, and suddenly your ideas appear on the page. There are no “ums,” no sloppy punctuation—just a clean draft you can work with and shape into something amazing. Since I’m no longer tethered to the keyboard, I can write on the move. The biggest thing is that I trust it.

I love Siri; we go way back. We’ve known each other for years, but sometimes I wonder if she even passed fourth-grade English because she can’t get punctuation right. Whisper Flow, however, automatically cleans up all your mistakes, digressions, and vocal fillers without losing any substance. That’s why I love Whisper Flow. I use it every single day and recommend it to every writer I know. You can try it for free at ref.whisperflow.ai/how-I-write.

Can you explain how agents work? You mentioned direct submissions, but my understanding is that the majority of authors who work with you have secured an agent who then brings them to you. Is that correct?

David Shelley (12:15-14:21)

That’s right. I mentioned this house, which takes direct submissions. This is fairly rare now due to the high volume of submissions and the need for editors to have sufficient time to do justice to the authors they publish.

In theory, agents find the “crème de la crème”—books they believe will find a readership—and submit them directly. However, agents aren’t always necessary. I know many authors who don’t find an agent yet become enormously successful. An agent’s hit rate is no better than a publisher’s.

Agents often have personal relationships with many editors. The skill of a good agent lies in knowing which book will resonate with a specific editor, who will then excel at bringing it to market through a particularly good publishing house.

They’re also adept at representing the writer’s best interests: securing the best deal, negotiating good royalties, and often handling film or translation rights to ensure the author is published globally. There’s no one-size-fits-all approach; some authors prefer to manage these aspects themselves.

However, a good agent can be invaluable for an author, helping them find a wide global readership by selling those rights. Sometimes, an agent also serves as a mediator between author and publisher, providing a valuable sounding board for both parties. They always work for the author’s best interests.

In my experience, a good agent might tell an author who dislikes a proposed cover, “Actually, I think this cover could really work in the market and help you sell more copies.” Conversely, an agent might tell us, “You want to put this cover on? My author thinks it sucks, and I agree.” It can go both ways.

David Perell (14:22-14:58)

How should authors work with publishers when there’s a disagreement regarding the book’s packaging or presentation, particularly the cover design? If I’m an author and I’ve written a book, but I’m unhappy with the proposed cover and want to change it, how do I navigate that with a large publisher?

I wouldn’t want to damage my reputation or future prospects, especially if I plan to publish multiple books with you. What’s the best approach?

David Shelley (14:58-15:42)

It’s a great question. As an editor, I experienced this firsthand many times.

With the authors I work with, I prioritize two things. First, I aim for a relationship of absolute honesty, almost radical candor on both sides. We should be totally straight with each other.

I always welcomed it when an author was direct with me, saying, “I hate this cover,” or “I really don’t like it.” In business relationships generally, I believe it’s always better to know exactly what someone is thinking.

I come from Britain, where people can be a little obtuse and don’t always say what they mean. You know what I mean if you’ve spent time there. I love being in this city because people are generally quite direct.

David Perell (15:42-15:53)

I read an interview where you described what it’s like in England: people sometimes say one thing but mean the opposite. You have to listen for subtext, whereas New Yorkers are...

David Shelley (15:53-15:58)

It can be exhausting. Working with an author, I love it when they’re like,

David Perell (15:58-16:00)

Is it two countries divided by the same language?

David Shelley (16:00-18:46)

It’s true, particularly over there. Sometimes people would dance around it, but I prefer when an author is totally direct. I always tried to reframe it with them because, on both sides, there’s a lot of talk about liking or disliking a cover. Authors might say, “I don’t like this cover,” or “I don’t like green,” or “I imagined it this way.”

I would always try to reframe it in terms of how we could sell the maximum number of copies. Whether we liked the cover or not was not the point. The biggest marketing genius I’ve ever worked with is James Patterson, whom we publish here. He has this brilliant phrase regarding covers—”I see it, I want it.” That’s what happens when a consumer walks into a bookstore. This phrase really resonated with me.

That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the most elegant or sophisticated cover. It’s simply “I see it, I want it.”

Research done a few years ago showed that when people look at a table or bank of books, their average dwell time is two to three seconds. You have to consider that context. The most beautiful cover might not be the one that really pops. You want the cover to pop, because you have very little time to engage people.

I think of it as a Trojan horse. I’ve sometimes discussed this with writers. It may not absolutely accurately represent what your book is about, but it’s a Trojan horse. If people don’t pick up your book, they won’t experience it. A literal representation of the book’s content might not be the right approach to get people to pick it up.

So I would always frame it with writers in terms of how we could sell the maximum number of copies. Occasionally, I worked with writers who would say their aim wasn’t to sell the maximum number. In such rare cases, I would, as a book publisher, obviously argue for selling as many copies as possible. I’ve been in situations where we had to compromise because their aim was a bit different.

I might suggest, “For the hardcover, your aim is to make it beautiful and get it into the hands of literary reviewers. Then, for the paperback, let’s try to sell the maximum number of copies.”

Generally, I advise authors to be quite straightforward with their editor or publisher. It’s the same in any business dealing. If people are rude on either side, it can damage a business relationship. If you politely and straightforwardly state your point, then generally there isn’t a problem.

David Perell (18:46-19:08)

It’s going to vary a little from writer to writer, but how much should writers focus on making money versus making art? There’s an assumed conflict between the two: you can either make as much money as you want or you can make great art. Let’s discuss that trade-off.

David Shelley (19:08-20:25)

I’ve worked with a wide range of writers, and their motivations are truly different. There is no one-size-fits-all approach.

For instance, a favorite writer of mine is Ronald Firbank, an amazing writer from the early 20th century. He wrote proto-experimental queer novels. They are insane; reading them now, from the 1920s, it’s incredible to think they were written a hundred years ago.

He did this in the full knowledge that there was no market for experimental, proto-queer novels in the 1920s. There was literally no market. He had them privately produced, as he had some money. His aim was to write these books that he believed were important, and indeed they turned out to be highly important. Even now, he has a very small readership.

Then there are other writers whose aim is to connect with a wide number of readers and create stories that resonate with many people. So, I would say there’s a real spectrum. That’s the fascinating thing about our industry: there’s no single right answer.

David Perell (20:25-20:40)

If you walk into a trading floor and ask people what they’re trying to do, basically every single person will say, “We’re trying to make money. We’re trying to make as much money as possible.” But if you go to a writer’s conference and ask the same question, the range of answers is incredibly wide.

David Shelley (20:40-22:21)

Absolutely. It also depends on people’s individual financial circumstances, as well as their aims and ambitions.

I’ve seen writers who are incredibly attuned to the finances of their art, and others who have literally no idea whatsoever. I once talked to a writer about his royalty statement, and he exclaimed, “Oh, God, all that paper!” I explained that it was the statement that comes every six months. He replied, “I just rip it up and put it in the bin.” I was surprised, thinking, “That’s got all the information about how many copies he sold!” But he said, “I just don’t want to know.”

This contrasts sharply with authors I know who will question, “Why are my royalties at this level?” or know every last detail.

What all writers have in common, I would say, is some sort of love for storytelling or, perhaps more accurately, a love for communicating. Some want to communicate to a small number of very in-the-know, cerebral people. Others are passionate about reaching a really wide audience.

Returning to James Patterson, part of his genius—and he’s very evangelical about this—is the idea of telling stories to the widest number of people, allowing the greatest number to enjoy the magic of storytelling. For me, there’s something very pure and artistic about that. People often view someone reaching a wide number of readers as a commercial enterprise, but it’s actually something truly artistic.

David Perell (22:21-22:23)

It’s very Warhol-esque.

David Shelley (22:23-22:54)

Exactly. That’s a perfect comparison. How do you make art truly accessible?

Another thing that unifies all the writers I’ve worked with is that they are all really smart and interesting. Whatever their motivations—whether they are commercial or non-commercial—I don’t think I’ve worked with a writer who isn’t both smart and interesting.

David Perell (22:54-23:51)

I’ve been thinking about books as art versus books as products. Often, we consider books as pure art, as an expression. Many guests on this show, like Richard Powers and Ocean Vuong, fall into that category.

A few months ago, walking back from a Nets game, I was in Barnes & Noble looking at the books on display. There was one incredibly popular book that everyone would recognize. I realized that while this book had sold incredibly well, it wasn’t a work of art; it was something else entirely.

I tried to find a word for it, and it hit me: that book is a product. It identified a problem people had and offered a very simple, clear answer that resonated with many. You could almost ingest this book like a pill, and it would solve your problems. I believe that’s why it sold so well.

David Shelley (23:51-24:20)

One thing I love about the industry is how creativity and commerce meet; it’s both.

I remember a very brilliant tutor of mine from college, a poet. I always remember this: my tutor, Craig Crane, talked to me about the similarity between poetry and advertising copywriting. He said that in both cases, it’s about using the best possible words in the best possible order.

David Perell (24:21-24:21)

Nice.

David Shelley (24:21-25:39)

Even when you’re talking about a product, it’s like poetry. If you consider what you might call a product, such as a really effective self-help book, there’s real art to it. It’s about the best possible words in the best possible order—the art of communication.

I think everything we publish has an artistic sense; there’s artistry there. Even when a book is designed for a very wide audience or has a functional purpose, there’s something to it. For instance, decades ago, there were these British gardening books by the Hessians that sold millions of copies. They were literally guides on how to plant roses or similar topics. The Brits love gardening, so perhaps only in Britain would these books sell millions of copies.

This author, though, had the unique ability to communicate gardening advice in a way that was incredibly understandable. His method of communication resonated with the human brain in a way no other writer could. To this day, these books continue to sell many copies. So, even when you’re looking at something that seems very functional or product-like, this author was an artist as well; he really understood how to connect.

David Perell (25:39-25:47)

As an author, how should I think about the packaging and sellability of my book?

David Shelley (25:48-26:21)

That totally depends on your aim as an author. Let’s consider different scenarios.

If you are an author, like Ronald Firbank, who is truly intent on creating something that matters, don’t think about that at all. Honestly, if your intent is to create something of lasting artistic worth and you’re not bothered about the financial side of things, then I think it’s actively helpful to put those considerations out of your mind.

David Perell (26:21-26:27)

Should I have a partner, like an agent, or should I simply focus on creating the art?

David Shelley (26:28-28:35)

Make the art first, then certainly send it to an agent. The agent can then determine how to talk about your art to a publisher. A good agent in that scenario would recognize something artistically interesting, something truly different and innovative. They will then talk to a publisher, explaining that if it’s from innovators like Patricia Lockwood or Ocean Vuong, it’s something truly different. They can tell the publisher, “You haven’t read anything like this before; this is completely new.” They will find the right publishers who are open to such work.

But when you’re writing, do not let those thoughts enter your mind. I’ve seen too many writers try to think commercially, and it actively dilutes their art. If you are that kind of writer and purity is important to you, then be very pure about it.

If you’re the kind of writer who wants to reach the widest possible readership, then you should read extensively, visit many bookstores, analyze bestseller lists, and examine covers to understand what’s working. Lee Child, for instance, wanted to reach a lot of readers and be very commercially successful. You know him; he was on your show. He’s an intensely smart guy, as you know, and does a lot of research.

If that’s your aim, then read extensively in your field. Look closely at what truly connects with people, examine reader reviews, explore bookstores, and identify which publishers specialize in particular areas. He actually chose his literary agent based on their excellent track record with big commercial authors and launching successful careers. So, yes, do your research when it comes to agents as well.

David Perell (28:35-28:43)

The core thing, then, is to know what you’re aiming for as a writer. That aim needs to be honest and coherent.

David Shelley (28:43-29:22)

Be super clear.

However, don’t listen to too much feedback. I’ve seen authors go off track because they’ve listened to too many opinions. The industry is full of noise, and while feedback is usually well-intentioned, it can often knock someone off course.

That’s another reason why a good agent can be helpful. They act as a North Star, often telling authors to let them handle certain issues.

David Perell (29:23-29:40)

What about editors? Publishers provide editors to help you work through your book. Is it ever worth hiring my own editor in addition to the publisher’s editor? When should I consider that, and when is it unnecessary?

David Shelley (29:40-31:07)

If you’ve sold your book to a publisher, I don’t believe you need your own editor. The publisher’s editor is there to work with you, shape your book, and make it as good as it can be.

However, if you haven’t been able to sell your book, or you’re still working on it, a freelance editor can be helpful. There’s no one-size-fits-all answer, but a freelance editor might help get your manuscript into shape to interest an agent, and then ultimately, a publisher.

Many excellent freelance editors previously worked full-time for publishers. For various reasons—whether they’ve left the industry, want to work part-time, or are retired—they now do incredible work for authors as freelancers.

Moreover, if you have an agent, many are excellent editors themselves. This isn’t discussed enough, but some of the best agents I know do three or four rounds of edits with an author before submitting a manuscript. While not all agents are editors—some focus purely on sales or getting the best deal—many are.

Regarding editors, I have a strong view for authors: the dream scenario is when multiple publishing houses are interested in your book.

David Perell (31:07-31:09)

The bidding war.

David Shelley (31:09-31:22)

Yes, the bidding war. My advice in that situation is categoric: move heaven and earth to meet and talk to all the editors bidding for your book.

David Perell (31:22-31:25)

It’s the editors at the publishing houses who bid?

David Shelley (31:25-31:35)

Yes. You’ll develop many relationships at the publisher. Your primary relationship will be with your editor, and then with the person above them, the publisher. That’s another key relationship.

David Perell (31:35-31:36)

What does the publisher do?

David Shelley (31:36-33:53)

The publisher runs the business unit. For example, at Little Brown—where you were published, and I was with Little Brown UK—we have branches on both sides of the Atlantic: Little Brown UK and Little Brown US.

Sally Kim, the publisher here, is brilliant. Her job involves running all the creative functions: signing off on books, covers, marketing, publicity, and all other creative aspects. She has many talented editors working in her team.

If Sally and a Little Brown editor were interested in your book, and you have five other houses interested, it would be crucial to meet with the editor and Sally, or at least the editor. Look for passion, genuine understanding of your work, and strong chemistry with the editor.

You’ll work intensely with this person. I’ve spent more time with some authors than I have with close friends; it’s a shared journey. I’ve worked with authors for decades, attending their weddings and maintaining deep connections. You will spend a significant amount of time with them.

It’s imperative to find someone who feels almost like a soulmate—someone who truly understands you, has your back, and is both passionate and talented. While money is important, in the long term, the connection is paramount.

My advice to any writer, whether in a dream scenario with multiple bids or with just one, is to meet and talk to them. Assess if you feel comfortable with that person.

The publicist is another key person, as authors often spend a lot of time with them. Of course, editors and publicists can leave, but in the first instance, prioritize making that connection.

David Perell (33:53-34:02)

So to be clear, the publisher, editor, and publicist all work for the publishing house I’m partnered with? And when does the publicist come in?

David Shelley (34:02-35:09)

They might talk to you right at the start. When a book is being acquired, the publicity team weighs in. For example, at a Little Brown acquisition meeting, the Head of Publicity will be present, offering their opinion on the book’s publicity potential. So they have a voice early on, but they truly come in full force when the book is approaching publication.

They’ll be calling newspapers, reaching out to podcasts, Instagrammers, and now TikTok influencers. The landscape has changed significantly in recent years, with TikTok being massive.

It depends on the genre, but the publicist is largely responsible for generating buzz, securing reviews, and ensuring media attention. Increasingly, publicity and marketing also work to create buzz directly with bookstores, which is crucial.

David Perell (35:10-35:23)

When I talk to friends, many of them feel that publishers won’t help much with marketing, and that authors really need to handle marketing themselves these days. How true or false is that?

David Shelley (35:24-36:26)

I’m wildly biased, of course, as I run a publishing company and believe our marketing teams are excellent. I would argue that we possess a great deal of in-house skills and expertise.

That said, we’ve also had positive experiences where our marketing teams collaborated with authors who had their own freelance marketing team or publicist. Generally speaking, a publisher should be able to handle these services for you.

I’d even say it’s a bit of a warning sign if a publisher tells an author they need to hire their own marketing team. I’ve heard this occasionally, and I consider it a red flag because a good publisher should, in my view, provide that service. In fields like business books, where we publish many CEOs, there are often strong personalities.

David Perell (36:26-36:30)

Like Ray Dalio, when he launched Principles, he must have had additional support.

David Shelley (36:30-36:58)

Yes, there’s often a combination of strong personalities and significant financial resources. We’ve seen situations where a CEO, a major brand, or a high-profile author will rightly say, “Your team is doing great work, no criticism at all. But I want to amplify this further; I want to add an extra layer on top.” In those cases, it’s perfectly fine.

David Perell (36:58-38:02)

Let me try to add some structure to this. It seems there are three key aspects.

First, there’s what the publisher can do from a marketing perspective, particularly around distribution. This includes things like securing end caps at Barnes & Noble, prominent table placement, and billboard advertising. As a publishing house, you have unique access to these types of opportunities.

Second, there are things authors can uniquely do, which tend to be more grassroots. For example, James Clear reportedly appeared on 80 podcasts the week Atomic Habits launched. This also encompasses leveraging platforms like BookTok and Twitter, or creating short clips about your book. These are more guerrilla marketing tactics that authors can execute independently.

The third aspect applies to authors with substantial financial resources, not typically early authors. For them, there are ways to essentially buy their own publicity.

David Shelley (38:02-38:35)

Exactly. I think that’s very well put, especially your second point about disruptive marketing. In fairness, sometimes we publish marketing geniuses, like James Patterson, who will say, “You do things your way, and that’s fine. But I have these other ideas that publishing hasn’t explored yet, and I want to pursue them.” James Clear is another example.

Often, we learn from these authors. We realize we didn’t know everything, and their innovative approaches teach us new strategies.

David Perell (38:35-38:50)

The world changes faster than any large organization can adapt. There will always be new, cutting-edge marketing channels available to authors.

David Shelley (38:50-39:11)

Yes, exactly. Publishing sometimes gets a bad reputation for being traditional and slow-moving, but I believe it’s more dynamic and faster-moving than people realize. However, it does sometimes require external disruption, and I think that’s healthy.

David Perell (39:12-39:15)

Should I go for the biggest advance when I write my first book?

David Shelley (39:15-42:51)

I’ll give you two scenarios; I’ll anonymize both of them. A well-known celebrity wanted to write a memoir. There were several offers. Some proposed positioning them as a proper author, while another simply offered a large sum of money without a clear vision for the book.

The author chose the option with the most money, and the book subsequently failed. In my view, the author would have been better off with a publisher who had a clear vision for how to publish their book and reach the market. Although the author received the extra money they requested, the book still underperformed.

Then again, I don’t know that person’s financial situation. Sometimes, if your sole aim is to maximize your immediate earnings, then opting for the highest financial offer is logical. However, if your desire is to build a long-term career, it’s highly important to trust your gut regarding who you will work well with, and who will be the best long-term home for you.

Often, we’ve seen publishers, as the under-bidder, offer a bit less money, but the author connects more strongly with the editor or the house’s vision. This can sometimes be a better long-term strategy, as the amount of money offered is not always indicative of a publisher’s commitment. A slightly lower offer doesn’t necessarily mean they love your book less or will do a worse job.

Sometimes, they might even do a better job, but the other publisher simply caught the finance director on a better day, or was very keen to fill a list and acquire many books. Ultimately, if you’re building a long-term career, everything evens out. If you take a large advance and it doesn’t work out—if the fit isn’t right or they don’t truly understand you—it will cause problems down the line, as your track record won’t be as strong.

You’ll be more compromised when negotiating a new deal. That publisher might lose interest, and other publishers might be hesitant. Conversely, someone offering less might be super passionate, have a real plan, and be able to work with you to make your book as good as it can be.

I’ll give you another example. An author had a very good book, but the ending didn’t work. They spoke with several editors. One particular editor said, “I know exactly what you should do with this ending.” The editor and author worked together, and the book did enormously well.

Many people praised the atmosphere, characters, and especially the ending. They often commented on the amazing twist they never saw coming. It was a thriller, and that incredible twist helped it sell a million copies. Even though the advance was minimal, and the author could have earned an extra $10,000 elsewhere, they more than made up for it because that editor knew exactly what to do to help their book reach the widest audience.

David Perell (42:52-43:10)

What do you think James Daunt has done so well with Waterstones and Barnes & Noble to bring about this resurgence of big blockbuster bookstores? Ten years ago, it really felt like these large bookstores were in decline. Now, Barnes & Noble seems to be doing very well, and I love Waterstones.

David Shelley (43:11-45:55)

If I had to pinpoint one thing James does brilliantly, it’s transforming Waterstones and Barnes & Noble into beautiful environments where people want to spend time. Prior to his arrival at Waterstones and Barnes & Noble, they were functional bookstores. They weren’t unpleasant, but they were simply decent places.

He has transformed them into inviting environments, making you think, “I want to go and hang out there. I actually want to spend some time there.” For instance, Waterstones in London has these lovely, old wooden tables—it’s rather like your environment here, actually. He makes it feel almost like being invited into a lovely house.

He also excels at curation. A technical thing that used to happen, certainly in the UK, was that publishers would pay for space. This meant there was a commercial negotiation for display space. A publisher might say, “We have a big blockbuster, and we need to get lots of copies out there,” and strike a deal with Waterstones. However, it wasn’t necessarily the best book for Waterstones or its customers.

James constructed new commercial models. He essentially said, “Look, if we’re promoting a book, we have a different commercial model, and we will choose what we promote. You won’t tell us; you almost can’t pitch things. We will read the books and decide what we think. We know our customers, and we believe we know what they like. We know how to pick books that will truly appeal to them, which might differ from other books in the market.”

What you consider a big blockbuster might be different from what we consider. He’s been amazingly successful with this approach. Sometimes, he would champion books on our list that our salespeople hadn’t necessarily identified as standout titles for Waterstones.

The Waterstones or Barnes & Noble team would say, “We love this book; we’ll pick it.” Sometimes they’d also tell us, “We don’t think the cover’s right. We believe a different cover would be more appealing to our customers.” Given the volume of copies they discussed, we would often agree. We’d talk to the author and say, “Look, we love this cover, and you love this cover. But Barnes & Noble believes they can reach more people with this other cover.”

David Perell (45:55-46:04)

They’re like Costco. They have enough leverage that if Costco tells a soup manufacturer, “Hey, this is what we want,” the soup manufacturer basically has to comply.

David Shelley (46:05-46:34)

Retailers know their customer better than we do. While we might think we know book customers, and authors have ideas when they write, it’s truly the retailers who understand their customers best.

So, if James tells me, “I don’t think you’ve got the cover right,” I’ll agree because I trust his expertise over any commercial or monetary concerns. He simply knows what he’s talking about.

David Perell (46:34-46:44)

Can you tell me about your observation that many successful writers have a strong moral sense?

David Shelley (46:46-47:26)

This comes from my experience working with authors. As humans, we gravitate toward individuals with a clear perspective, often anchored by a strong moral compass.

I’ll illustrate this with Mitch Albom, whom I’ve had the great privilege of working with. What fascinates me about Mitch is his perspective. I find him, both as a person and a writer, to be a seer. He genuinely sees things I don’t; he guides me.

David Perell (47:27-47:29)

He almost seems anointed.

David Shelley (47:29-48:51)

Yes, it almost makes you wonder where that insight comes from. He has, of course, been wildly successful worldwide. I believe readers appreciate a writer who presents a coherent moral universe with integrity.

Consider C.S. Lewis and Narnia. As a kid, I loved that series. I wasn’t thinking, only later did I realize, oh, he was Christian and that it reflected Christian theology. But there was a compelling sense that Aslan possessed an immense presence, and that a clear system of values was at play.

The same applies to Lord of the Rings. In science fiction and fantasy particularly, these moral universes often exist. Great writers often have an almost seer-like quality, which is sometimes in the subtext of their work, not explicitly stated. Take Sally Rooney, for example; there’s a very strong moral underpinning to her writing.

David Perell (48:51-49:23)

Looking at my bookshelf, I see Camille Paglia, Michel Houellebecq, Rilke, and Nietzsche. When I think of those writers, I think of a strong point of view regarding how the world should be and shouldn’t be, what we should and shouldn’t do.

You can, of course, disagree with them, but they possess a clear sense of right and wrong. They are not indifferent to the world, and that passion permeates their writing.

David Shelley (49:23-50:31)

The biggest intellectual properties of all time are often like that. Narnia, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, Disney – the strongest creative IP always has that moral core. I can’t think of an exception, where you’re not really sure about the moral compass, or a good story exists but without that underlying substance.

This strong moral element is particularly evident in genres like mystery and thrillers, where I’ve spent much of my career. In mysteries, it’s almost a given that the villain is brought to justice. I’ve published hundreds of books, and in virtually every single one, the villain does not escape; they do not prevail.

Patricia Highsmith’s The Talented Mr. Ripley might be an exception, but I wouldn’t place it in the same category. There’s something immensely appealing to readers when justice is served.

David Perell (50:31-50:34)

That story is phenomenal: The Talented Mr. Ripley.

David Shelley (50:34-50:35)

The Talented Mr. Ripley.

David Perell (50:35-50:40)

I haven’t read the book, but I’ve watched the movie, and it’s so good.

David Shelley (50:40-50:46)

Perhaps it has its own distinct morality, just a different kind.

David Perell (50:46-50:56)

Tell me about mystery and thrillers. Break down what you’ve learned about each genre and how they are similar and different.

David Shelley (50:56-52:43)

In mysteries, a crime—typically a murder or several murders—is committed, and there’s a puzzle element: who committed it and why? Almost always, a protagonist, such as an amateur detective, a private eye, or police—like Sherlock Holmes, who is the archetype—works to solve it.

I’m passionate about this genre. I’ve worked with amazing mystery authors like Val McDermid and Patricia Cornwell—incredible artists and true poets. There’s an enormous amount of artistry in this field. It’s like a haiku: a crime is committed and solved. But within that framework, there’s so much texture and nuance.

A thriller, however, is different. Jeff Abbott, a great thriller writer I worked with years ago, described his books as encapsulating the most dramatic moment of an ordinary person’s life.

Thrillers actually take many different forms. There’s the domestic thriller, where an ordinary person gets swept up in a heist or something dramatic happens while they’re walking down the street. Then there are spy thrillers, like Mick Herron’s great series, which we published.

David Perell (52:43-52:45)

I’m thinking of Gone Girl.

David Shelley (52:45-53:35)

Gone Girl is a domestic thriller. Gillian Flynn’s work was incredibly innovative and very literary. It’s very clever.

Thrillers typically have many twists and turns. The key thing in a thriller is to expect the unexpected. People read thrillers for resolution at the end, though good doesn’t always prevail.

A thriller delivers constant twists. You never expect what’s coming. They are very fast-paced and often televisual. Expect things exploding, unexpected shootings, or a man with a gun. I associate thrillers with adrenaline.

David Perell (53:35-53:39)

Now, speaking of horror, it seems to be making a comeback.

David Shelley (53:39-55:00)

It’s definitely coming back, but in a different way. Traditional horror, when I started in publishing, often involved novels like “Slime,” where a bunch of slime would infest people. It was often schlock.

However, the great genius in this field is Stephen King. He is a timeless genius, outside of any single category, though many other authors contribute as well. He evokes a deep sense of menace and unease, a feeling in the pit of your stomach.

For me, horror isn’t just about the subject; it’s a visceral feeling of dread, like being on a fairground ride. The latest wave of horror is different. We’ve seen queer horror, feminist horror, and other subverted narratives.

David Perell (55:00-55:11)

Why does subversion work so well in horror? The connection between them isn’t clear to me.

David Shelley (55:11-56:07)

Horror itself is a subversive genre. In horror, unlike any other, anything goes. It could be a load of slime, a demonic dog, or anything.

There are fewer rules than in any other category. Good does not need to prevail, and it deliberately should be shocking. It’s a genre that lends itself to innovation.

When there are no rules, a young generation of feminist and queer writers sees it as absolutely ripe for subversion. Many genres rely on likability, but horror does not. It doesn’t need to.

David Perell (56:07-56:09)

The likability of the characters?

David Shelley (56:09-56:55)

Not even likability, but relatability. In a literary or crime novel, you want to connect with the characters. In horror, that’s not a factor because the antagonist might be slime, attacking birds, a giant vat of radioactive material, or a shapeshifting entity.

It’s more conceptual, both conceptual and visceral. While characters are important, they aren’t the primary focus. Often, you want characters to act in surprising, disgusting, or morally upsetting ways.

David Perell (56:56-57:00)

This is really good. Can I ask you about other sections of book publishing, like children’s books?

David Shelley (57:00-57:45)

Children’s books encompass such a wide spectrum. It’s not the field I grew up in, but as a CEO, I’ve spent significant time with children’s authors. They’ve explained that children’s books are not a single category.

There are picture books, middle grade, and YA, each with diverse subgenres. Anchoring is crucial for children’s books. Whether a picture book, middle grade, or YA, it needs a coherent and somewhat safe universe for a child to inhabit.

Let me show you this.

David Perell (57:50-57:52)

It’s really fun having a bunch of books.

David Shelley (57:52-57:54)

You’ve got a great bookshelf.

David Perell (57:54-58:24)

I’ve never picked up a book from the bookshelf during an interview before, and this is my 30th one. This is my favorite children’s book from childhood: “Flight,” which tells the story of Charles Lindbergh and the Spirit of St. Louis.

As you were speaking, I realized what I loved about it. Children’s books are so rooted in pictures that, as a kid, I could really imagine the scene.

David Shelley (58:26-58:27)

Oh, yes.

David Perell (58:27-58:39)

I remember looking at this image as a kid and thinking, “Wow.” I couldn’t even imagine flying across the world. I remembered thinking of this.

David Shelley (58:40-58:41)

The illustrations are great.

David Perell (58:41-59:10)

They are really good. This is Lindbergh, in the middle of the night, flying across the Atlantic by himself. I remember the terror of that experience.

You can experience that “movie” in a children’s book very quickly, in 5 or 10 minutes before bed, and then presumably dream about it. I have very intimate relationships with children’s books in a way I don’t with books that are just text.

David Shelley (59:10-59:21)

There’s an interesting sales dynamic that speaks to that: beloved picture books can keep growing in sales because

David Perell (59:21-59:22)

I’m buying them for my kids.

David Shelley (59:22-01:00:02)

Exactly. That’s what happens. People read them as kids and stay with them in an incredible way. They then buy them for their children or other kids in their lives.

It’s a mushrooming effect that is quite extraordinary. There is no other category like it.

Many picture books, for example, might start with a print run of a thousand copies. Forty years later, they could have sold 10 million copies. I can’t think of another category where generation after generation engages with the same content, from childhood into adulthood.

David Perell (01:00:03-01:00:11)

Is the movement of the back catalog in children’s books different from that of adult books?

David Shelley (01:00:11-01:00:38)

Absolutely. The back catalog in children’s books accounts for a much larger portion of sales than it often does in adult publishing.

There are both upsides and downsides. The downside for an author is that the back catalog can be a bit feast or famine. Some books, for whatever reason, simply capture people’s imagination.

The back catalog is exceptionally important in children’s publishing.

David Perell (01:00:39-01:00:47)

How does publishing differ across markets? Specifically, how does it compare in France, the UK, and America?

David Shelley (01:00:49-01:00:58)

The UK and America are very similar; France is very different. Having experience on both sides, I can say that.

David Perell (01:00:58-01:00:59)

Hachette is a French company.

David Shelley (01:01:00-01:02:37)

Hachette is a French company, but operates quite federally. France, Spain, the UK, and the US are our key markets.

In the UK and US, the fiction markets are very similar. For instance, an author like Michael Connelly works equally well in both markets. It’s unusual to find a fiction author who performs exceptionally well in one market and not the other, unless the subject matter is highly specific, such as the American Civil War, which might be unfamiliar to British readers, or very niche British humor.

Broadly, fiction is very similar, and nonfiction is quite similar. If we consider self-help books, like those by James Clear, they perform similarly. However, some fields differ significantly.

Sports, for example, are very different, as is cookery. Ina Garten is very popular in the US but less known in the UK, while Jamie Oliver is hugely popular in the UK but less so here. These are examples of regional preferences.

Despite these differences, the UK and US markets are broadly similar. One interesting historical difference is that Americans prefer hardcovers, while British people prefer paperbacks. In Britain, hardcover sales are relatively small, with paperbacks dominating the market. In the US, it’s essentially the reverse: hardcovers are often the biggest format, and paperbacks sell fewer units.

David Perell (01:02:37-01:02:52)

To confirm, a book typically launches in hardcover and remains the sole option for about nine months before a second launch introduces the paperback edition.

David Shelley (01:02:52-01:02:58)

Correct. However, if a book is performing exceptionally well in the US, publishers often extend that hardcover-only period, which doesn’t happen in the UK.

David Perell (01:02:58-01:03:01)

Hardcovers are beneficial because they are more expensive and offer bigger margins.

David Shelley (01:03:02-01:03:56)

Broadly, when a book sells well, hardcovers yield higher margins. However, if a book doesn’t sell, the margins can be worse. Unsold hardcovers incur higher costs.

If a book performs well in hardcover, it benefits the author because they receive a higher royalty due to the hardcover’s price point compared to paperbacks. This creates a built-in advantage for the US market, as consumers prefer that format.

This trend may be shifting somewhat. Publishers are also becoming more conscious of the social aspect, recognizing that not everyone has a lot of disposable income.

The mass market paperback format in the US has largely been discontinued, as stores have indicated they no longer want them.

David Perell (01:03:56-01:03:57)

What does that mean?

David Shelley (01:03:58-01:04:10)

They were the very small paperbacks, the kind you could fit in your pockets. That format has diminished over the last few decades.

David Perell (01:04:10-01:04:18)

I dislike reading that kind of book. The form factor makes it much harder to read.

David Shelley (01:04:19-01:04:29)

That format. Personally, I quite like it because I sometimes want to literally put a book in my pocket.

David Perell (01:04:29-01:04:33)

Let’s compare these two. This, to me, is a mass market paperback. They tend to be smaller.

David Shelley (01:04:33-01:04:34)

Yes, exactly.

David Perell (01:04:35-01:04:38)

My issue is how fast they close.

David Shelley (01:04:39-01:04:40)

They do.

David Perell (01:04:41-01:04:57)

They snap shut. I remember buying The Technological Society by Jacques Allule in mass market paperback and finding it unreadable because of its printing.

If you look at this book, it sits flat, while the other doesn’t. It’s almost...

David Shelley (01:04:57-01:05:09)

Perhaps I’m witnessing the American consumer react in real-time. This is fascinating. I hadn’t actually considered the opening and closing of books.

Perhaps this is what...

David Perell (01:05:09-01:05:10)

This is wonderful.

David Shelley (01:05:11-01:05:23)

Americans like books that lie flat. As publishers, our role is to react to consumer behavior and give them what they want. You’re right, consumers want books that lie flat; they don’t seem to want the alternative.

David Perell (01:05:23-01:05:31)

I didn’t realize the mass market paperback was a distinct thing. So many of the books I’ve bought that I couldn’t read were mass market paperbacks.

David Shelley (01:05:31-01:05:44)

That has now gone. There’s an enthusiasm for hardcovers and for what we call trade paperbacks, the bigger paperbacks.

David Perell (01:05:45-01:05:49)

I bought this right when I was working at Eton College outside of London.

David Shelley (01:05:49-01:06:25)

It’s a lovely little edition.

You also asked about France, which is very different. There used to be a truism in publishing: if you sold translation rights to France, you probably wouldn’t sell them anywhere else. Conversely, if you sold them everywhere else, you likely wouldn’t sell them to France.

This is still broadly true, but the French market tends to be more cerebral and intellectual. They are very interested in big themes, particularly philosophy.

David Perell (01:06:25-01:06:31)

The philosophy bookstores in Paris and Montreal are so good. We don’t have that here.

David Shelley (01:06:31-01:07:19)

It’s a different culture. Having spent a lot of time in France dealing with French people, I believe culture and books are taken very seriously there. There’s a part of me that’s quite envious of that. They even have a books minister and truly center literature in their culture in a way that we don’t in the US or the UK.

To be fair, French readers do love Romantasy, they have sprayed edges, and Michael Connolly is big there. All of that is true. However, there are certainly some authors who are huge in France but nowhere else, often those who are more intellectual.

David Perell (01:07:20-01:08:19)

One thing that surprises me about the publishing industry is its failure to embrace the economics of bundles. TV networks understand this concept incredibly well; it’s why the cable bundle works. You package a lot of content together, people pay more for it, and when amortized across all consumers, it generates more revenue.

In the publishing industry, I would love to buy multiple formats of the same book — the ebook, the hardcover, and the audiobook — all in one purchase. The closest the industry offers is buying a Kindle book on Amazon and then getting a discount on the audiobook, which is nice.

My friend Paul Millard deserves credit for this idea. It hasn’t happened yet, but it seems like an obvious move for publishers.

David Shelley (01:08:20-01:09:15)

That’s an interesting question that comes up and we consider it periodically. Stepping back, our job is to ensure our authors and shareholders get the best return, allowing authors to make the best possible living and keeping our shareholders happy, by maximizing the value of the precious creative content we publish.

Every publisher operates differently and has different views. I personally haven’t seen a compelling economic model that would work well for both consumers and creatives to allow such bundling. While you may want that, it’s not something we’ve seen widespread demand for. We try to listen to the market and what people want.

David Perell (01:09:15-01:09:17)

It’s not something people ask for.

David Shelley (01:09:17-01:09:27)

It’s not something we’ve seen a lot of demand for. We do, however, work with streaming models to some extent, such as Kindle Unlimited.

David Perell (01:09:27-01:09:28)

And Spotify now.

David Shelley (01:09:28-01:10:27)

Spotify now. There’s more appetite for that model. From a consumer point of view, based on our extensive research, we’ve definitely seen that consumers appreciate the choice and ability to have content delivered to them in this way. We then need to figure out how to offer that while also ensuring we’re not selling the farm. That has certainly been more of a focus for us in understanding consumer appetite.

I’d place you in the top 1% of book enthusiasts. I primarily get this question from that top 1% — people who, I imagine, buy many books in all different formats. You are clearly a top-echelon book lover. We are, of course, trying to serve you and your 1% of amazing book lovers.

David Perell (01:10:27-01:10:29)

But you need to serve the best.

David Shelley (01:10:29-01:11:15)

We do need to serve them. What’s exciting about some of the streaming platforms is the reach. For instance, with James Patterson’s audiobooks on Spotify, a large percentage of listeners are younger individuals who have never listened to an audiobook before, and many are not regular book readers or lovers.

We are always trying to serve all sorts of different markets. It’s exciting on both a commercial and societal level to realize we can reach people for whom reading is not a typical activity.

David Perell (01:11:15-01:11:30)

My sense is that ebook growth, while still present, has been slower than many anticipated a decade ago. Now, a lot of the growth in the publishing space is with audiobooks.

David Shelley (01:11:30-01:11:35)

Correct. There’s actually a very nice scenario.

David Perell (01:11:35-01:11:35)

Yes.

David Shelley (01:11:35-01:12:50)

I was there when ebooks were exploding, and we didn’t know where it was headed. We seriously considered a scenario where it could mean the end of print books. That was a real concern and emotion at the time, and we did a lot of catastrophe planning.

What’s been amazing to see is the younger generation returning to physical books. Gen Z and Gen Alpha, in particular, show a large preference for them. For example, in the UK, we published Alice Oseman’s Heartstopper, which tied into a Netflix series. It was incredible to see the overwhelming preference for physical copies among its very young readership. While they were graphic novels, which naturally lend themselves to print, the preference for physical was still striking.

We consistently hear from younger people that they appreciate physical books. For them, they’re not just beautiful objects; they also offer a kind of utility. Things like sprayed edges make them beautiful things.

David Perell (01:12:50-01:13:07)

There’s beauty, but also signaling. If I’m reading on my phone, I can’t signal that I’m a book reader.

On weekends, I constantly see people in coffee shops or restaurants reading a physical book, and it’s almost a fashion statement.

David Shelley (01:13:07-01:13:37)

It’s that, and it’s also something else that truly intrigues me. As a non-digital native who grew up in an analog world, my relationship with digital is very different from that of digital natives. I believe Gen Z and Gen Alpha often preemptively choose analog activities.

Sometimes it’s related to mental health; time off a device is beneficial.

David Perell (01:13:38-01:13:38)

Totally.

David Shelley (01:13:39-01:14:48)

Time with a physical book is good; it’s almost a healing experience. Ebooks have definitely plateaued, but in a positive way, as they serve a number of distinct needs.

Ebooks appeal to prolific readers who may not have significant disposable income. While an e-reader requires an initial investment, readers can then find special deals and load up their devices. This is particularly true for older readers. I’m certainly struggling with font size myself now, and the ability to vary it on e-readers is invaluable. There’s also the benefit of portability; you can get any book anywhere, anytime, which suits a particular type of reader.

We’re also seeing younger readers engaging with ebooks. Audiobooks, as you mentioned, appeal to everyone, and notably, a lot of younger men are entering that market. It’s the only area where we’re seeing a significant increase in male engagement.

David Perell (01:14:48-01:15:44)

To refine my earlier point about bundles: Audiobooks and ebooks are distinct because they have zero marginal cost. However, from my perspective, the publishing industry hasn’t fully acknowledged this. They aren’t treated as zero-marginal-cost products and, instead, are handled similarly to print.

I believe there’s room for creativity. While I’m an outsider simply brainstorming, one idea could be to offer a discount on the ebook during its release week, with the price increasing over time. This would incentivize readers to engage with the book right when it’s new. It seems there are untapped opportunities for experimentation.

David Shelley (01:15:45-01:16:46)

I need to be careful how I discuss this, as I can almost feel my lawyer on my back. Broadly speaking, and I can only speak for Hachette, we saw a massive surge in costs post-COVID across the entire supply chain – paper, shipping, printing, everything.

We look at everything comprehensively; we must consider our entire cost base. Regarding your point about marginal cost, we have to assess the whole operation.

It’s certainly true that print books have become enormously more expensive in recent years, by as much as 30-40% in some cases, depending on the format. We have some formats that are loss leaders and others that are more profitable. It’s similar to an airline, where some seats deliver you more value.

David Perell (01:16:46-01:16:49)

Than others, they just make money from the credit cards.

David Shelley (01:16:49-01:17:24)

Yes, exactly. Some things might operate at a loss. There’s a truism in the industry that 80% of books lose money, so we always try to look at things holistically.

With ebooks, we can offer special deals to incentivize readers to discover an author’s work. Anyone familiar with ebook platforms will have seen these deals, or services like BookBub.

David Perell (01:17:24-01:18:07)

To your point about the industry’s power law, I found some interesting statistics from the Department of Justice lawsuit against the Penguin-Simon & Schuster merger.

More than 85% of authors never earn royalties beyond their advance. Books with advances of $250,000 or more comprise only 2% of all acquisitions, yet they account for 70% of all advance spending. Essentially, a small number of books receive the majority of advances and generate the profit for companies. That’s simply how the publishing industry operates.

David Shelley (01:18:07-01:18:35)

People outside the industry often ask why we use advances. They suggest a royalty-only system. However, it’s a competitive market. Advances are the established method, similar to the music or TV industries. There is definitely a feast-or-famine element to it.

David Perell (01:18:36-01:18:59)

Only 35 out of 100 books turn a profit. The top 4% of profitable books generate 60% of that profitability. As the Penguin Random House CEO put it, publishers are like angel investors. Marcus Dole, CEO of Penguin Random House, noted, “We invest every year in thousands of ideas and dreams, and only a few make it to the top.”

David Shelley (01:18:59-01:19:58)

People often assume that books with the highest advances always do well, but that’s not the case. Some of the most rewarding moments in my career involve books that started with small advances, where an editor was incredibly passionate. Take Where the Crawdads Sing, for example.

Penguin Random House published it in the UK. It wasn’t a huge deal initially, but it became one of the bestselling books of the last 20 years. Many books, acquired at various advance levels—sometimes even low ones—go on to break all sales records.

To your point about authors, you can never truly know what to expect. A book not receiving a huge advance doesn’t mean it won’t become an enormous bestseller.

David Perell (01:19:59-01:20:05)

Last question: I’m an author thinking about which publisher to work with. Why should I work with Hachette?

David Shelley (01:20:05-01:20:55)

We have the most diverse range of imprints among the large publishers. Our offerings range from incredibly specialist publishing, like Jessica Kingsley, which is the world’s largest specialist publisher for autism, gender diversity, and Chinese medicine.

We publish huge authors like Michael Connelly, James Patterson, and Helen Hilderbrand in both the UK and US markets. We have a vast spectrum of publishing categories.

While I’m biased, I believe we also offer a wide range of business models and different approaches.

David Perell (01:20:55-01:20:55)

What do you mean?

David Shelley (01:20:55-01:23:25)

We have an imprint called Bookouture, which any author can find online. It’s one of the few imprints that largely accepts unagented authors. You can submit your work, and everything will be read and assessed.

Their model is unique: they offer a much higher e-book royalty than the industry standard. It’s a no-advance, all-royalty deal, and because they don’t pay advances, their royalties are higher.

For a writer, it’s a way of betting on yourself. If you trust them and believe you can reach a large readership, you’ll receive a larger share of the profits—I believe it’s 45% of net receipts.

Beyond that, we have the traditional business model where we compete with other large publishers, and then our very specialist publishing segments. At Hachette, there’s truly something for everyone. Whatever type of writer you are or field you operate in, you’ll find an imprint or an editor who excels in that area and can find a market for your work.

We also do an excellent job with marketing, publicity, covers, and distribution, though many of our competitors do too. We are increasingly a global company.

I serve as CEO for both our US and UK operations, and these divisions are collaborating more closely. While it’s common for us to publish authors in one territory but not the other, we are increasingly pursuing global deals and working with our colleagues in France and Spain. I would say we’re probably the most global publisher in terms of reaching a worldwide readership. We’re also quite innovative on the digital front. We’re constantly learning and improving, but I believe that’s a strong reason to join us.

David Perell (01:23:25-01:23:26)

David Shelley, thank you very much.

David Shelley (01:23:26-01:23:29)

Thank you. This has been a pleasure.