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Speaker 1 • 00:07
Did you get a little tired of watering your garden this summer? If so, you might want to think about adding a gravel garden to your landscape. We’ll hear all about them today on Garden Talk. I’m Jill Nadaux. Glad to have you with us. Jeff Epping is back with us. He is the former director of horticulture at Ulbrick Botanical Gardens. and continues to run his own design and consulting business. He specializes in eco-conscious designs for projects ranging from small home gardens to expansive business campuses. Gravel gardens have been a passion for him for a very long time, and he has a new book out about it. It’s called The Gravel Garden. Visionary, Drought-defying, Naturalistic Designs. What would you like to know about creating one? Have you visited one? What are your thoughts? Give us a call with your questions or observations. 800-642-1234 or send an email to talk at WPR. org Jeff Epping, thanks so much for being back with us.
Speaker 2 • 01:08
Thanks. Thanks for having me. It’s been a while.
Speaker 1 • 01:11
It’s been way too long. You sort of just disappeared on us, Jeff. I was like, how do I get a hold of this guy? Um but I heard from Mark Dwyer that you had this new book and so I was very happy for him to put us back into contact. So what what decid decided you on putting this book together?
Speaker 2 • 01:27
Well, that’s a good question. I um I was exposed to gravel gardening well back in the nineties, uh visiting Beth Chadto in England. When you were ten. And I was enamored by it, but you know, I thought that cool, that was it sounds like it’s a good idea because she was worried about water. We’re using too much water in a garden. And then come around 2006, Roy Dibblick, a good friend of mine at Northwind Perennial Farms, um, put a little gravel garden in at his place and I saw it and I thought, all right, maybe I maybe I should think about it this so I didn’t do it right away. I wanted to see how it turned out for you. That’s a good idea. Yeah after a couple years I said okay in uh 2008 I um I put it in a gravel garden for Epic Systems Um and then in 2009 our first one at Olbrick and then proceeded with three more. So four um four at Old Brick. And you know, after a couple years of uh gardening in that concept I was blown away by how easy it was, uh how little resources had to go into it. You know, from water to mulch, fertilizer, all those things that uh I didn’t I didn’t need uh like I did in my other um uh uh you know, beds or borders. So I thought this is something I need to start spreading the word about. So I gave some lectures. You know, we often gave garden tours at Obrach and I always set up the gravel gardens and people were fascinated by it. Um so yeah, it just kept spreading the world. And it it word and it came uh came to be my most popular lecture of, you know, probably twenty I gave. at the time and so and then I don’t know what year it was, but a few years back, um American Roots, a beautiful book um written by uh Nick McCullough and his wife Allison and my my garden was featured in it, my home garden. And Nick said Jeff, every time I give the book lecture and show your garden at the end, I have the most questions about your gravel garden. He said, you need to write a book about that. And I said, Oh yeah, yeah, when I retire. Well, I left Over. I couldn’t really retire, but I left Overick and I thought, okay, it’s time. And so um I reached out to Uh Teresa Woodard, who I worked with many times at Old Brick, when she would uh write uh gardening articles for different magazines, and um and Bob Stefko was often the photographer. So those two uh teamed up with me to to put out the book and uh yeah it turned out turned out really well. Came out this June.
Speaker 1 • 04:03
Yeah, and you know it’s it’s beautiful It really is. Um, even if you have no intention of putting in a gravel garden, the pictures are amazing. The ones that I really appreciated were the bird’s eye viewed. I don’t know if you took ’em with drones.
Speaker 2 • 04:16
Yes we did.
Speaker 1 • 04:17
Because you know, we’ve seen the plants. before where you’ve got the little dots, you know, this is where this goes, this is where that goes, but you never see them actually when things grow. And so by having that view, you really appreciate the design factor
Speaker 2 • 04:31
I I appreciate you saying that because I I couldn’t agree more. You know, when you see that top view, then you see all the other views. You can put it all together and see how it all lays out. And um so we try to do that in each garden, but You know, the government doesn’t let you fly a drone next to uh Iowa State’s stadium uh where we filmed uh uh Adam uh And Anna McCracken’s beautiful garden designed by Kelly Norris, one of one of the most outstanding gravel gardens I’ve ever seen. Um so yeah, it was a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 • 05:06
Bob is an amazing photographer.
Speaker 2 • 05:08
Um Teresa a great writer. So we yeah, we teamed up and and kind of co-wrote it together. Um and Teresa ended up putting a little gravel garden in at her place as a result too. So uh yeah, so she’s all in
Speaker 1 • 05:22
She came over to the dry side.
Speaker 2 • 05:24
That’s right. It just isn’t hard to do these days, right?
Speaker 1 • 05:27
No. Well, like I said when I started out, I mean I I have watered more this year than I think I ever have in a garden just because it was so dry. It was July into August, right? It was dry here. Um I think I don’t know if it’s still dry up in the northern part of the st
Speaker 2 • 05:44
Yeah, and actually the last several years. Our summers and falls have been very, very dry and it’s caused a lot of our plants to perish.
Speaker 1 • 05:52
Yes.
Speaker 2 • 05:52
Um it doesn’t happen right away, and so people don’t realize um why you know. Things are dying, but it’s often because of these crazy dry and hot. How hot has it been late lately too Um so yeah, and what a lot of people don’t know, and I encourage a anyone to do a little deep dive into aquifer, uh aquifer depletion, just type that into a Google search wherever you’re at. and uh read about uh what’s going on not only in in Wisconsin or the United States but around the globe our aquifers are in peril. And um So we need to change our ways because scientists believe that like the Aguala aquifer could be dried up or unusable for drinking by twenty fifty, maybe twenty eighty if we’re if we’re lucky, but we can we can stop that if we use our water more wisely. And with climate change, I think we all want to do something, right? And one way we can help is to create gardens. Um, get rid of some lawn, which we have so so much in this country. Um and it’s of all the things in your garden or your yard, uh the lawn is the least contributing to the environment. It really offers nothing for insects and birds and all those things. And then we dump tons of energy in the form of water, fertilizer, fuel, all those things. So give up a little of that sunny patch of lawn, put it in a gravel garden. Use a bunch of native plants because most of the plants that we use here, which are super well adapted to these dry conditions, are our native prairie plants. And of course Depends on where you’re at in the world, but there’s always plants in your region that will work well. Well you try. Try to use as many natives as possible, but uh honestly I don’t use all natives. Uh one of the things I’m I’m very passionate about is that I want if I’m going to create a garden for somebody, it it needs to be beautiful because they are not going to give up some space. They’re not going to give up some grass if they’re putting something in that they feel isn’t. And the money, time and money. So the gravel garden, um I try to have things in bloom through the season So starting out with bulbs. Actually bulbs do very well in gravel gardens because they are native to dry gravelly mountainous regions, most of them And so um they do fine in the summer just baking in that soil, um, or being dry in it. Um, and they do well. So I can get real early spring color and then I can use uh uh you know other other native and non-native. But really the prairie plants, most of them bloom when we get a bunch of heat. So that early early part of the season I might uh depend on more non-native plants. But I try to do as m as many as possible. Um Sure everybody has heard or if you haven’t, check them out, uh Doug Talamy. Oh yeah. Uh telling us about how important native plants are. And even he says, you know, if you can do 70% native in your in your garden that is really doing a a great service for um all the wonderful creatures that uh live around us or could live around us if we create something for them, right?
Speaker 1 • 09:15
Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.
Speaker 2 • 09:17
So that’s kind of the
Speaker 1 • 09:18
Kind of the philosophy then.
Speaker 2 • 09:19
So you have to have typically the plants that we use are deep-rooted drought talent perennials, things with big tap roots like uh pale uh purple cone flowers, one you know, baptizias or falsyndigo is another name for that. You know, all these these plant plants that have these deep root systems. And that’s what takes them through these drought periods without a hitch.
Speaker 1 • 09:41
So we’ve probably got people interested in it. So let’s just talk about the basics on it. So when we say gravel gardening, we’re not talking about like big chunks of rock. Right. We’re not talking about that horrible landscape rock that we see in front of buildings and we’re talking about Tiny little gravel, right? Yeah, it’s like quarter inch size.
Speaker 2 • 10:05
You know, it we I often use an angular gravel because it kinda holds together better if we put paths through. But but pea gravel works great And we’re not talking about just the dusting over the top. All right. We’re talking about five to six inches. Some of the gravel gardens that we featured in the book, we featured twenty. Um, some of the layers of twelve inches of gravel and they’re still, you know, the plants are doing fantastically. So um I find that about the five, six inch range is good for us. And Well the gravel we use is a wash gravel. So that P gravel is a wash gravel, right? Every particle is about the same size. Quartzite is the other one that I use. It’s angular. Every particle is about the same size, even though it’s angular
Speaker 1 • 10:45
So think of marbles in a jar. You can shake and push, do whatever you want.
Speaker 2 • 10:49
You’re never gonna get rid of that airspace in between those individual marbles. And that’s what that gravel does for us. So what maintains that airspace. which uh cools the soil below. It’s a great ins insulator. Uh it’s dry, so there’s no amount of moisture in there. Um and then the plants thrive in that. And it is a very effective barrier to weed seed invasion. Okay, so a seed lands on top, it has to send a route all the way through dry gravel to the soil below, which is pretty tough. However, it does happen from time to time, but nine times out of ten, if not more, it’s the plants that are already in your gravel garden because they are super drought tolerant. And so they are adapted to those types of conditions Most of our weeds are sort of agricultural, you know, based weeds that r like high fertility and lots of moisture. So they really don’t uh they’re they’re not a problem. Now Will we get a few weeds? Yes, because if you’re familiar with a plant like an aster, a dandelion, a goldenrod, the seeds float through the air. If they land right in the crown of an existing plant and we have a wet spring or whatever, they they’ll they’ll probably germinate. But each spring We go through the garden when we clean it up. Um and you can see those, you know, as as all the plants are emerging from from their uh dormancy. You can see those little weeds here and there. You pull those from the crowns right there. Get get rid of them when they’re easy to pull and get out. And you’re good for the season. So um Yeah, it’s uh it’s it’s it’s it’s sounds too good to be true and I thought it sounded that way too. And then I tried it and I’m like, all right, this is this is great.
Speaker 1 • 12:36
I like that you tried it on other places before you put it in your own yard because your yard is actually a gravel garden now.
Speaker 2 • 12:46
I would have put one in sooner, but my wife had other thoughts. But when our when our front garden got torn up by a street uh renovation project, I said, all right, now’s the time to to do it. And she was like, alright. And I she’d seen it. others at that point. So she was like, Oh, these are pretty beautiful. And that’s the thing. This isn’t um if you if you f if you look at the book you’ll see these amazing gardens. And when I think of gravel gardening, it doesn’t sound very Wonderful.
Speaker 1 • 13:16
No, it sounds like cactus. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 • 13:17
It sounds dry and and but boring, but these gardens are as beautiful as any other.
Speaker 1 • 13:23
Yeah.
Speaker 2 • 13:23
In fact If you plant densely, like I tend to design my gravel grounds, you don’t even see the gravel except on the path. In the early early part of the season. Um, but also the gravel can be kind of a nice negative space and and um a couple gardens in the book. Uh Sean Conway out in Rhode Island. Oh it’s an amazing garden. Um He he likes that that that gravel uh look and I uh I agree it’s beautiful.
Speaker 1 • 13:48
So we’re talking about gravel gardens with Jeff Apping. His new book is called The Gravel Garden Visionary Drought Defying naturalistic designs. If you have a question about what a gravel garden is, or maybe you’ve seen his over at Ulbrick Gardens, give us a call, 800-642-1234. Or you can send us an email, talk at WPR. org. So if anybody wants to see them, really Oldrick is a good place here in the southern part of the state or if you want to take a travel down here because it the the gardens are worth seeing anyway. Um but they’ve been in for a long time. Um I even have one of your pictures that We we talked about this about eight, nine years ago, I think, and you sent me some of the pictures. And so I have one up on our website, wpr. org slash garden talk. If you want to see a picture, you will not think that there’s gravel involved, other than you may see a little bit of gravel. But let’s just start. How do you how do you start? You got someone here who’s really interested in Tired of watering. I want to do something for the environment. How do I start?
Speaker 2 • 14:53
You bet. So find a nice sunny spot. Um They don’t do great in shade. Most of these plants are, you know, won’t want to be in full sun and dry conditions. So find a sunny spot. Then you need to create a border. around the garden and that is because we have that five to six inches of gravel all the way to the edge of the garden we want to maintain that. If we just let it fall out, we’re gonna have all sorts of weeds around the edge, right? Because it’ll go from nothing up to five to six. So in oftentimes you can use a walkway or a sidewalk a driveway foundation of a building in my case at home I use the curb on the street uh for one of my souls you need to do that and that’s about eight inches or higher. Uh so that when you put the six inches of gravel you it retains in there. You don’t want it spilling all over, right? Yeah. Oh, you get rid of the existing vegetation, however you want to do that if you want to put down cardboard to kill it, you want to use a you know a chemical like glyphosate to kill whatever it is you want to do. Eliminate everything that’s there. We don’t want to anything like Quackgrass or Canada thistle or something like that because the gravel won’t hold that down.
Speaker 1 • 16:05
Right.
Speaker 2 • 16:05
So that’s gotta be done Put the gravel in place.
Speaker 1 • 16:09
Um and then we do remove any of the soil?
Speaker 2 • 16:13
Or do you just No, you just build the we just build so um Typically would n you know get rid of that vegetation. Um oftentimes now I don’t even rototill anything anymore because that works up more seeds and ruins the structure of the soil. Um so you can just leave that down.
Speaker 1 • 16:32
No weed f you know barrier, no fabric, anything like that because these right?
Speaker 2 • 16:37
I’m often asked that question. Um and then we put the gravel in and then planting is super fun. You just kinda put a good pair of gloves on, dig like a dog and set the set the plant in there and push the gravel around. We’re not even Uh we’re not even digging into the soil below. We’re just setting the root ball on that and then it’ll root into.
Speaker 1 • 16:57
So you want the roots of the plant. Now you mention in your book you want these plants to be the pots to be about four inches or something like that. So the roots are pretty much close to where the soil starts.
Speaker 2 • 17:15
Correct. They’re usually about four inches or so, maybe a little more. But if you’ve ever planted something in a pot, you know that the roots go down to the bottom and then they start circling around. Yeah So when you remove the pot, just kind of loose take off any loose soil, and I always take off on any container plant the top inch. because that’s where dormant weed seeds will be waiting f for you to water them and get them going. Um so get rid of that and then you have that root mass and then just kind of massage that and you can easily get it to the five to six inch range So when you put it in there in the hole, it boom, it’s uh you know, it’s good to go.
Speaker 1 • 17:55
And do you use gravel then over the root?
Speaker 2 • 17:59
Yeah, so we so the crown of the plant is at about what it would be, you know, if it were just in normal soil. So the crown is at the surface. of the gravel and then the root mass is in that five to six inches of gravel and the roots are touching that uh soil below
Speaker 1 • 18:19
And um I’m assuming you really should have a plan to where you’re gonna put these. You don’t just say, okay, I’ve got fifty plants here, I’m just gonna kinda Yeah, I mean I yeah, that’s just a design thing, right?
Speaker 2 • 18:31
So um y don’t try to get every plant in the world. You don’t wanna need a hundred different plants in a thousand square foot or you know, a small space. Um so some repetition. So yeah, I always lay them out first, uh, in the pots on top of the gravel, but don’t, you know, don’t let any soil spill out. And when you plant And I said you peel off that soil, do it over a bucket or a bushel basket. We don’t want to contaminate the gravel and create organic matter within the gravel, okay? Because then then we are allowing the weed seeds to have an advantage because that’s what they need, that moisture. So you keep that real clean. Um and then after you plant you water. Now, I tell you we’re planting these because they’re drought tolerant and they are. But any plant needs needs some time. It needs to root in to that soil below. Um, so in the first week or so you’re watering them as if they were still in a pot. Okay. Might be every day, depending on when it is, but just spot water, you don’t need to do a ton. And then as time goes on, you just taper them off And people always say, well, how much how much for how long? And I said, just look at the plants. Always look at them first thing in the morning. If a plant is wilted first thing in the morning, it needs water. You know? If it’s not pro may or may not. Because plants, even when they’re they’re they’re have the moisture they need, uh, they might wilt in the heat of the day. in full sun. Okay. So anyway you’ll get a feel for that if you if if you’re um a gardener. And then you just wean them off of the water and then in year two You might water um if we get some s you know, severe drought periods. Uh but then in year three and beyond I haven’t watered my gravel garden at all.
Speaker 1 • 20:18
Nice.
Speaker 2 • 20:19
Um so yeah, so that’s the that that’s the beauty of it. Now the one super important thing you need to do every spring is clean the garden up Okay, and so you remove all all the material. And I always do it in the spring because in the winter the birds are coming in, I have finches eating the seeds of my compass plants and my uh uh cone flowers and things. So it and it’s looks nice, right? But in the spring I want to clean it up so I I remove all that. I cut back two stems leave about four to six inches of stem. We’re learning from ecologists now, right, that that’s good for insects, especially bees. They’re they will use those hollow stems or even pithy stems to create a nest and and and uh you know produce the next generation. All of the material, I used to, you know, take it to the compost site, right? I don’t do that anymore because again, we know that All these insects, be their eggs, larvae, maybe even adults, are living in that plant material. So now I take it, I cut it into about, I don’t know, 18-inch sections if it’s longer than that. I make bundle of about, I don’t know, foot across or so and I but and I just place those in other parts of my garden. Not the gravel garden because That’s just a small portion of the overall garden. But I tuck them behind shrubs, I do, you know, along my fence line, under my hemlock trees, put them all over the garden and set and let the the insects that are in them release, right? They they’ll they’ll come out at the appropriate time. Mm-hmm. Some early, some later in the season. And then that material becomes part of part of the mulch for the rest of the garden. Sure. Yeah. And you know, it again, uh at ecologists, we need to be messy messier gardeners. We’re too crazy cleaning every little thing up. Because that’s where the insects live.
Speaker 1 • 22:08
Yeah, it’s the truth. I mean I’ve always my philosophy has always been what happens in nature. Because obviously nature’s been doing it for a long time. So they’re doing something right
Speaker 2 • 22:18
That’s exactly right. Leave the leaves.
Speaker 1 • 22:22
Yes.
Speaker 2 • 22:22
You know, and ’cause all the wonderful insects that we love. Like fireflies, they need they need wood in your garden. They need all these things among amongst all the other insects. So Um, but in the gravel garden, I gotta clean it up. I gotta get all the organic matter out. So I cut it all back, remove it. Mm-hmm. Usually wait a few days. I have a battery powered blower. I go through and and blow everything else, the little pieces out. Then I’m good for the season. I’m good. And then um yeah, and then I just enjoy the garden for the most part.
Speaker 1 • 22:53
So I mean, but during the summer if branches from a you know tree nearby or whatever blow in, you just Yeah.
Speaker 2 • 23:00
Yeah, yeah. And you might want to tidy up the edges and stuff. So there’s a uh uh landscape architect uh at Michigan. uh University of Michigan uh by the name of Joan Nassauer and she did this big study on people’s perception of these messy, messier native gardens that everybody’s creating. And some people just can’t wrap their head around that sort of it’s not everything in its proper place, mulch in between every plant, blah blah blah. And um so she showed images with a hedge around a native planting or a strip of turf. or um the edges and the pathways making sure you clip everything along, you know, nothing falling in, just what she calls cues for care. Or very formal plants in your garden or sculpture or something that shows that it’s a cared for space. And so, yes, I do kind of clean up especially the street edge. uh things f you know, uh flow out into the street. If they’re in flower and nobody has a problem with that. No. Especially all the dog walkers. They love it. Well after it’s done flowering then I might have to rein it back in a little. But I try to do that as little as possible because again Seeds are important to the birds and to other insects that eat them too, so I try to keep as much as I can.
Speaker 1 • 24:19
Yeah, absolutely. And we’ll talk about when we come back after this break, um, about uh you working with an HOA because that there’s a lot of them around and it can cause a lot of problems. So we’ll be back in a little bit, but we are gonna we are talking with Jeff Epping. He’s the the former director of horticulture at Old Brick Botanical Gardens, and he’s got a new book out. It’s called The Gravel Garden, Visionary Drought Defying Naturalistic Designs. If you’ve got a question, please give us a call. Open lines 800-642-1234 or send an email to talk at WPR. org. This is Garden Talk. I’m Jill Najell. We’re talking about Gravel Gardens with Jeff Epping. Um coming up at the top of the hour after the news, we’re gonna talk about diseases that may be appearing on your fruit plants and trees. And then in the last half hour we’re going to talk about growing bone size. But we’re taking your questions and comments now about gravel gardens, the number 800 642-1234. And of course you can send an email. Talk at WPR. org. And let’s go to the phones. Deborah and Racine, go right ahead.
Speaker 3 • 25:41
Hi, um I have a kind of a weird question. So we’re doing a bathroom remodel. We do we are doing it now. We gutted it And whoever did this bathroom back probably, I don’t know, like decades ago, because we live in a historic house put a whole ton of concrete, like laid a ton of concrete on in the bathroom. So we’ve had to break it all up into all of these tall pieces. And I have a whole bunch of buckets of this kind of gravelly sand to kind of golf ball size piece like refuse of this concrete. Can I reuse this for a gravel garden? I would love I have a little space in between my garage and patio Then I’m like, could I do this? But so I wanted to get your opinion on that.
Speaker 2 • 26:29
No, that’s great. That’s great. In fact, you know, there’s that’s another type of draw tolerant uh gardening uh designs that people are doing uh especially in uh urban areas, bigger cities They’re using construction rubble, be it from yeah, porcelain, concrete, old bricks, yeah, all those things. Um, you know, trying to reduce their carbon footprint by keeping them close by and not hauling materials long distances. So yes, um there are people doing that. Um it’s really It’s really hard to say, uh, without seeing exactly what you have, but I would say maybe, you know, mix in some sand with those pieces. you might want to top it off with a a pure like layer of uh say pea gravel or something because if you use just sand um on the surface it’ll be a little easier for weeds to get get going in there. But if you just you have that really well drained mix and have some little crevices in there for things to get rooted in. Uh I I think you’ll I think you’ll have some success. I know some people who have done uh a little bit of that and they’re they’re having a lot of fun with it. And
Speaker 1 • 27:39
Some to be quite honest, I looked at in the beginning, I thought, oh my god, I don’t think this is ever gonna work.
Speaker 2 • 27:44
And I was completely wrong and they’re beautiful. Um so again, though, you have to select the right plants, right? You gotta have things that are gonna uh thrive in those drier conditions. What what direction does that space uh face?
Speaker 3 • 27:57
Is it south or that’s Yep, that’s that’s the issue. It it actually is north facing so it doesn’t get a lot of light and it’s a little strip. I was thinking like a Kerex Aldecens or something maybe.
Speaker 2 • 28:12
Yep, there’s a lot of sedges that are super drought tolerant. Even you know some non-native plants like Epimedium might work, but yeah, just uh um some of the native asters like Aster devaricatus, which is those. Well no it’s a different genus, Symphia Trichon, I guess. Or Eurybia.
Speaker 1 • 28:32
The woodland asters.
Speaker 2 • 28:33
There’s a lot of plants that are really drought tolerant. Because it’s in that northern exposure, they they won’t be as dry as if they were in the southern exposure. So you might have to do some experimenting. I encourage you there’s there’s a uh a gentleman uh from England, his name is John Little And he’s all over Instagram. Check him out. He does all sorts of cool stuff with uh with what exactly what you’re talking about. Construction debris and um he’s he’s Does a lot of little video clips too. He’s fun and super knowledgeable.
Speaker 1 • 29:06
Okay. Well good luck, Deborah. Go ahead and experiment. What’s it gonna hurt, right? Yeah. Now, does she have to worry about creating some like some of the with the bigger chunks that she might have crevices and things that dirt falls into that she has to worry about?
Speaker 2 • 29:20
Um yeah, I would probably I don’t you know, it’s hard to say what it looks like. But I I might break it down into a little bit smaller pieces. Um because, you know, the The roots will find some of those little crevices will might might be good, but if they’re big big solid pieces, you probably won’t get much rooting into that.
Speaker 1 • 29:36
Okay, get some of your frustrations out, Deborah. Crash that, crack it up, crack it up. Thanks for the call. Let’s go to Amy in Cambridge. Hi, Amy.
Speaker 4 • 29:45
I hello. I have a question. I was trying to visualize when you were talking about starting, you know, kind of starting one of these gravel gardens. And am I understanding that it’s that it’s are you kind of building it up with it?
Speaker 2 • 30:00
I think uh you kind of cut out there, but I think what you’re asking is that do we go up? So the soil, you don’t have to remove six inches of soil. You actually just create the border. uh six to eight inches higher than the existing soil. Now if you have an existing sidewalk or um curb like I did at my house. I there I have to go down on that edge eight inches Uh, but and then I slowly bring that to grade into the bed. So I’m not removing eight inches for the whole garden, I’m just getting that eight inches down and it can be slightly slanted going back into the bed. Take that soil and just throw it back into the into the bed that you’re creating the gravel garden in. And you know, just rake it all out smooth like you would with any other garden before you in this case before you add the gravel. The other thing when you add the gravel be careful that you put stakes about every two feet through the space. Mark that six inch mark on each stake
Speaker 1 • 31:02
Because when you spread the gravel, it’s so easy to have two inches here, ten inches there, whatever.
Speaker 2 • 31:08
But if you do that, you’ll get it consistent and those are easily, you know, pulled out after the fact Um so anyway, but you know, it’s fun just to give it a try. So if you have a small space, like I have between my driveway and the foundation of my house, I have like two feet facing south. Perfect spot to give give it a try.
Speaker 1 • 31:29
Um and you’ll probably end up putting the bigger one in later because you’ll be like, oh my God, this is too easy Although moving gravel around takes a little more muscle than you think. So just to say word. True. Um and in some cases you actually will put a border in. I mean I know I’ve seen some of those pictures where there’s like maybe some rocks or whatever.
Speaker 2 • 31:54
Right. You could use you could use landscape, um, you know, like brick. You know, some of those are really big. We did that out at Epic, actually that’s what they use for their edging Um you can use boulders, you could use yeah, and any sorts of things. Or even steel edging if you want to do that.
Speaker 1 • 32:11
Just to kind of keep it contained. That’s the important part. Jenna emailed us, she said that she doesn’t recommend concrete in the garden because cement mixtures typically contain coal fly ash about thirty percent which may have contaminants like arsenic, mercury, aluminum, um, stonium, uranium, etc. etc.
Speaker 2 • 32:33
So And that’s that’s what these um designers in the urban areas are are up against.
Speaker 1 • 32:39
Right.
Speaker 2 • 32:39
So believe it or not, in England, London they have certified recycle material that is free of those contaminants. Ah, nice. In Chicago where I’ve been doing some work with Not so much. So that’s what we’re kind of trying to figure out how we can recycle these materials without yeah, causing other issues.
Speaker 1 • 33:02
Right. So don’t put vegetables in there, sure.
Speaker 2 • 33:05
Right, right.
Speaker 1 • 33:06
Not that you would, but
Speaker 2 • 33:09
No, that’s a good point.
Speaker 1 • 33:10
Yeah. So thank you for that, uh Jenna. Um so let’s talk about um some of those other things in your book because you do have a lot of examples and you’re going all over the world on well mostly to Britain, but in the United States. But let’s talk about that HOA first. Um and that is a home here in Madison. Um and it was in an area with a homeowners association with lots of rules Um and the owner wanted to put in this garden to in memory of his wife. Um so tell us about that
Speaker 2 • 33:40
Yeah, yeah. That’s um that was a f couple of years back. Um Mike called me and said he and his wife Linda had been to one of my gravel garden talks. Uh since that time they moved into a new home in this in this neighborhood that’s yes uh uh heavily HOA regulated. Um sadly, Linda passed away during COVID. Uh Mike wanted to uh create this garden in her memory. And the first thing he said is I am not the gardener. Window is the gardener. But uh but this sounds like, you know, I could do it. And I said, okay, we can and then I said, where you at? And he told me, and I’m like, okay. Well, the first thing we need to do is is pitch this to your homeowners association. And I said, I’ll be happy to do that. I can, you know, do a little presentation, show him images. I could come the old brick, whatever, because I would really like to do this for you. And he said, Oh, I got it. I got it. I’ll talk to him. I said he said I was like, okay. And then uh so he did and he had a conversation and uh at the end of that he said, so what do you think? Are we good? And the and the president said Absolutely not. No way. And so Mike being a very uh smart guy, he said, send me the covenant, please. I want to look it over. So he and I did. There’s nothing in the covenant that said that we couldn’t do what we what we did. You know, there’s some setbacks. We couldn’t do anything on the parkway. Heights of plants needed to be three feet or less. All things that we could easily do. And so we did. We created the garden. Um We actually worked with the lawn care company that uh mowed his grass for him because I said, I don’t I don’t I’m too old to be doing, you know, all that heavy work. Um and so it was fun. It was fun for them.
Speaker 1 • 35:30
It was something different.
Speaker 2 • 35:31
And you know, when they were all said and done, uh they’re very proud of what they did and the garden has turned out beautifully. And what is so fun is that the book, the very front cover, is Mike’s garden, the guy who’s not a gr not a gardener. And we featured a lot of fantastic gardens in the book and gardeners and this is the one that made the front cover because it is so beautiful and within two years time. Yeah. Yeah. Two years time it looked like a million bucks. Believe me, there are a lot of people sort of like cocking their heads as they walk by, like, what are these guys up to? And then, you know, two years later people are stopping and thanking him for putting the garden in and providing all that beauty and all the butterflies and birds and such that utilize it. It’s pretty cool.
Speaker 1 • 36:18
And that was another one of those overhead views where you can see that compared to all of the other homes in the area. It’s like oh my gosh, what a difference Um I can’t believe it didn’t inspire other people in the area to do something, even if it was just a little. But yeah, and he said it was way easier than he thought as far as the cleanup in the spring went too
Speaker 2 • 36:40
Yeah, so you know, um Mike’s up there in years, uh uh like I am too, but he’s uh he gets a little help cleaning it up in the spring now. But then the rest of the season he’s good he’s good to go. I mean, you know. Um
Speaker 1 • 36:52
So there’s you know there are there are probably HOAs that may be a little bit more um for snickety, but you know, you can work with them hopefully.
Speaker 2 • 37:02
You know, and I I think that’s changing. You know, I’ve heard from a lot of garden designers around the country. I go to a lot of professional um, you know, uh conferences and such. And um most of them are starting to loosen up because they uh you know, everybody understands what’s going on out here with climate change and You know, it’s getting harder for us to live in this heat and uh dry conditions, but think about all those insects and birds and mammals and all those creatures having to deal with this and with shrinking habitats as well. So we need to, you know, create gardens that support them. And this type of garden does.
Speaker 1 • 37:43
Now let’s talk a little bit about how these kind of gardens are used in cities, because you have a number of examples in the book also.
Speaker 2 • 37:49
So yeah, we have uh a roundabout actually, and I’ve always thought those would be the perfect place. Yeah. Uh and we’re getting more and more and more of ’em, aren’t we?
Speaker 1 • 37:58
Yes. I have no problem with them. I am actually pro roundabout. I know it’s controversial, but I’m I’m there with you. If I don’t have to stop, I’m all exactly.
Speaker 2 • 38:08
Um but yeah it’s Warthmore College in uh in a suburb of Philadelphia, Swarthmore. Um they created a new sort of downtown space, put in a big roundabout, and wanted to, you know, make it Beautiful. So um the college horticulture team put their heads together and and ended up uh putting a beautiful gravel garden in the middle. And then a lot of the um uh a lot of the parking lot island beds and such, uh they converted the gravel gardens too, uh which work out really well. So the only issue with um uh Creating a garden like that in urban space is especially in well, not as much there, but here in Madison, uh our streets are treated with both salt and sand.
Speaker 1 • 38:56
Okay. And sometimes the parking lots are as well.
Speaker 2 • 38:59
So if if we create a battle like this, we just have to be cognizant of trying not to pile snow up into those beds. It’s usually n there’s usually lots of other opportunities to push the snow somewhere else. Um because that sand will start to fill in the poor spaces. Um so a good example of that is uh at Goodman Pool here in Madison. Uh years back when I was still at Old Brick, um we put in some nice parking lot island beds there that um ten years later still look fantastic. Um and you know, they’re not getting a ton of care. They’re getting no supplemental water and they’re doing beautifully. And there’s again pictures of that in the book. We also did a uh an old fountain uh at the Madison Water Utility uh uh building uh just on Owen Avenue there near near the pool. And I I remember when I got a call asking if we would be interested in helping him do it. I was like, what? I don’t know what I don’t know. I don’t know about this. And then I went over and looked at I was like, oh, this we should yeah, we should Give this a try. How many fountains uh derelic fountains are there in this country? Yeah, and he was faced with, you know, uh jackhammering the whole thing out and you know starting all over, which was take a lot of energy. Now uh these gravel gardens are absolutely gorgeous and you know and and not to demean the crew that works there but that they’re not gardeners right they they They are just maintaining the landscape, which was, you know, a lot of grass, hedges, that sort of thing. And they have taken this garden and done beautifully with it.
Speaker 1 • 40:35
And let’s face it, I mean most municipalities just don’t have the money to take care of these things anymore. So it makes sense.
Speaker 5 • 40:48
Hi, my question is we have a pondless waterfall feature and so there’s elevation and uneven ground. Is that something that you can put a gravel garden around?
Speaker 2 • 40:59
Yeah, well you can you can create one um uh as long as it isn’t super steep. Okay. So like a five percent grade uh should be fine. Uh out at Epic we actually created uh because these are out at Epic it’s pretty cool. Um the gravel garden is on top of a parking structure that holds 2,000 cars underground. And so this is a very shallow uh soil profile about twelve to eighteen inches maybe. And we actually created topography by using foam and stuff Um so you can have some of it, but not not so steep that the gr uh gravel will start to, you know, migrate uh in a heavy rain or something like that. If you have a steeper slope then you’re better off terracing it, right? So to create levels uh that wouldn’t be quite so steep. So uh yes, you c you could do that.
Speaker 1 • 41:49
That sounds interesting. I think that would look really, really neat. So good luck with that, Vicky. Take a look at the book. It’ll give you some really good ideas about plant combinations and you know colors and whatnot. Because you do part of the book is you do have this like the little squared off areas where you you do you picture the the gravel because there’s different colors. And you also recommend trying to get gravel that is um like native to the area, right?
Speaker 2 • 42:14
Right, locally sourced so you’re not spending you know, because the gravel it It’s heavy. It’s heavy. It’s cheap, but you gotta get it from there to your home. And that’s what costs you the money. And it doesn’t make any sense to uh you know be hauling stuff halfway across the country. Basically the gravel just needs to be, you know, similar dimensions. And again, it you look at the book, you’ll see all the different types of gravel people are using. And it needs to be hard. It need uh not a softer stone that’ll break down over time because then that will compromise the system. Yeah. But It was fun and the book we you know, I I like to think that there’s so many beautiful photographs in it that even someone like my wife who isn’t a avid gardener, if she loves gardens, appreciates them, could pick up the book and enjoy it. Yes. Um And then under each of the photos that you see, which there’s over 600, uh there’s captions. And so they describe what’s happening in the photo. They’re they’re bringing across a lot of technical information. uh that you can you know take it or leave it whether you’re a gardener or you’re not um so there’s just yeah a lot of great information like you said there’s gardens in in Iowa Philadelphia Illinois, Chicago area, and even one way down in Naggadochis, Texas.
Speaker 1 • 43:31
Texas, if you think about it. Um and so many in Britain who um someone who’s not really traveled into Britain, um, I always think, you know, the lovely cottage gardens and it’s green and it’s like Wow, they don’t have a lot of water there? That’s so is so interesting to me.
Speaker 2 • 43:47
Well, uh it’s d like everywhere right now. Um record temperatures in in England and Spain and forest o all over the world. So things are changing in a big way. And more and more gardeners there are looking to these uh these drought tolerance solutions. And uh one in the in particular is amazing is Nep Castle. Um uh there’s a whole there’s several books on on the whole story of NEP and how they’re converting an old farm. to a more naturalistic landscape all the animals that are coming in as part of that. And they had a small uh croquet garden in a swimming pool in uh in a walled space and it didn’t fit into what they were doing there.
Speaker 1 • 44:34
But it’s a cast
Speaker 2 • 44:36
Well, they they blew it up and they created a dry garden and they tried several different types of gravel and different uh mixes. Um, but it’s amazing. And what they do there is they monitor every creature, every insect, mouse, mammal, what birds, and they’re doing that in the gravel garden as well and finding like an amazing abundance in such a short period of time. It’s only, I think, like five years old.
Speaker 1 • 45:01
Wow.
Speaker 2 • 45:02
It’s a really neat story. And again, it’s it’s in the book and get out go on Instagram or or your f you know, social media or whatever and and check out more. But it’s um yeah, it’s something that’s making sense all over the globe.
Speaker 1 • 45:16
Yeah. So when are you leading the gravel garden tour? probably sign up for that. Um so I wanted to talk before we have to let you go. Um so okay so you’ve had your garden now for quite a few years in front of your house. Um do those Do those plants have to get, you know, divided? Do you do some of them just die out because they’re getting older? I mean, what if you find one you you really want to put a new plant in? How do you do that?
Speaker 2 • 45:46
Well, that’s a good question. Um What’s interesting is that when you garden traditional garden, um fertility is very high. In fact, a lot of researchers sh show now that we we’re we’re making the fertility way too high in our gardens, which makes it even harder to maintain because the plants grow faster than they
Speaker 1 • 46:07
Want to or should.
Speaker 2 • 46:09
They howl out in the middle and so then we don’t like ’em because they don’t look neat and tidy. But in nature, you mentioned earlier I like to look to nature, right? Yeah. Who divides perennials in nature?
Speaker 1 • 46:21
Nobody.
Speaker 2 • 46:22
Nobody. Nobody. Um and So in the gravel gardens it’s lean and mean. Uh where there’s not a lot of fertility. Um we don’t fertilize, plants grow at the pace they want to grow at. And so yeah, the garden, first one at Olbrick 2009, plants are still there. Some things come and go. We’ve learned a lot uh of which plants do better than others. Something like purple cone flower, short-lived. It’s really not a a prairie plant. Pale purple cone flower is, and that lasts for for a long time. So we’ve learned some things there. But as nature goes, sometimes you get voles, little wells, little metal mouths that come in and they’ll work below the snow line in the winter and literally take out, you know, plants. So it’s still gardening. It’s not a miracle. It’s not like interior decorating where you set it up and it’s So it’s still gardening. But um and and you say you know replacing plants. Well I can never leave well enough alone with my garden because I’m all so I do take some things out because I want to try something new. Sure. Um because I always want to keep learning myself. But um I wouldn’t have to.
Speaker 1 • 47:38
What do you do with your old ones, Jeff? Because you Oh I have a big family.
Speaker 2 • 47:47
I never have a problem getting rid of them, let’s put it that way.
Speaker 1 • 47:50
I’m sure you don’t. Um, okay. Well Again, I really think you anybody that’s interested really needs to pick up this book. It’s called The Gravel Garden visionary, drought-defying, naturalistic designs. Um and it’s Jeff Epping and I’m sorry, your co Author.
Speaker 2 • 48:10
Theresa Woodard and Bob Stefko is the photographer.
Speaker 1 • 48:13
Photographer. And like I said, even if you’re not really interested in doing one of these Pick it up, take a look at it, okay, because you’re gonna enjoy it because it’s beautifully designed. The the pictures are amazing And I would guarantee by the end of it you might be interested in putting a little one in a corner somewhere. So you probably would be. What’s next on your agenda, Jeff?
Speaker 2 • 48:35
Oh. People say when are you gonna write the second edition? And I said, uh it’s gonna be a while. A book is more work than I than I gave it credit to be. But it was a lot of fun and I’m proud of the way it turned out. And Honestly, I I I don’t think I’m gonna get rich writing a book, but I really wanted to share this information because I really think it’s important. with the way our climate has changed and will keep changing. So we all need to look to better ways to garden. I’m not thinking that everybody’s gonna convert their garden to a gravel garden, but a portion of it maybe, right? And then look at the rest of your garden. And think about how you can make it more drought tolerant for for the good of mother nature.
Speaker 1 • 49:17
We need to help this planet out. Yes. Well, it’s nice to have options. So thanks so much, Jeff, uh, for being with us. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 • 49:24
Thank you.
Speaker 1 • 49:25
Jeff Epping is the former director of horticulture at Old Brick Botanical Gardens and continues to run his own design and consulting business. He specializes in eco-conscious designs for projects. Ranging from small home gardens to expansive business campuses. Again, the book is gravel garden, visionary, drought-defying, naturalistic designs. We’ll be back after the news Growing your own fruit is a special pleasure. So when something doesn’t look right, who can blame you for getting a little concerned? This is Garden Talk. I’m Jill Nadeau. Back with us to take your questions about fruit disease is Leslie Holland. She is an associate professor and extension specialist of fruit crop pathology in the Department of Plant Pathology at UW Madison. How are your fruit crops doing this year? Do you need help identifying a disease? Are you wondering how to prevent one? Well, give us a call with your questions at 800-642 1234 or send an email to talk at WPR. org. Leslie, thanks for being back with us.
Speaker 6 • 50:48
Hi Jill. It’s my pleasure.
Speaker 1 • 50:50
Um, I’m so glad you were able to make it. I mean we couldn’t get all three of you late are you um fruit ladies Together so we kind of spread you out, but that’s okay. We’re gonna focus in on that plant disease. How’s it been this year for you? What’s uh the year been like in disease?
Speaker 6 • 51:06
Yeah, that’s a great question, Jill. Well every season’s a new season, uh especially in Wisconsin. But yeah, this year’s actually been fairly disease intensive, I would say. I think we had a pretty unusual spring, as I’m sure you remember, with hot and cold, hot and cold, a little bit of rain, and now we’re getting some later season rain. So as a pathologist, it’s been a great season for me. I think folks growing fruits might feel a little different.
Speaker 1 • 51:29
I’m sure. Yeah, it’s kinda weird, isn’t it? Good for you, not for the people who are trying to make some money off of it. Because usually you work uh mostly with um the the farmers, right? And then you also work for extension for home grown or homeowners too.
Speaker 6 • 51:45
Yes. So large scale operations all the way to just something in your backyard.
Speaker 1 • 51:48
Mm-hmm. So how is the cr how have the crops been though for for those that are producing?
Speaker 6 • 51:54
Yeah, I think so far we’re still a little ways out for harvest for most of them, but I think so far it’s been looking good. I know some folks suffered some some freeze damage early in the spring. And so that’s brought some yields down for folks. But in terms of disease, I think we still have a few things to see as we kind of head into the next month or two. But I can certainly say the humidity this year and then some of the warmer temperatures made things quite conducive. So we are starting to see both foliar diseases expressing as well as some fruit diseases both in the orchard and vineyard spaces
Speaker 1 • 52:23
So what we’ve got um what apples and grapes coming up. Those are the biggies?
Speaker 6 • 52:30
Yeah, those seem to be the big ones so far. Actually I was just raiding some orchards yesterday where we have some commercial trials and I was seeing a fair amount of disease both fruits and on the leaves.
Speaker 1 • 52:39
Okay. Um so let’s talk about some of those. Um I had asked you for a few a few of them that are kind of top on your list and you had some things um with strawberries. Now those obviously those it’s more more June um but there’s still things that can go wrong with them this time of year, right?
Speaker 6 • 52:58
Yeah, this is actually was a little surprising to me. This has one of been been one of the biggest phone calls and probably emails I’ve received this past summer was about strawberry disease. And usually I’m dealing with fruit diseases, but unfortunately this year I think a lot of growers suffered with both root and crown rot diseases, which the right diseases on the underground parts of the plant, which for the most part we don’t often think about, right? We’re excited about the fruits, the things we can eat. And we’re not thinking about the parts underground. And but I think as we all know they play an important role in keeping the plant uh thriving. And unfortunately a lot of growers are seeing plant decline due to I think soils that are just wholly more moisture. So we’re seeing more fungal diseases, more omycete diseases in the roots and the crown tissue. And unfortunately this can lead to total plant collapse and decline where growers are actually having to pull out these plants which reduces production and we’ve heard more about that this year.
Speaker 1 • 53:49
Oh yeah that’s a shame because usually a strawberry plant lasts quite a few years doesn’t it?
Speaker 6 • 53:54
Yes, it absolutely can. And I think that’s maybe the tough part with some of these diseases is that these pathogens actually overwinter in the soil Right. So because that plant’s there, the roots tissues are still available, and then of course that soil’s there uh helping support those roots. And if the pathogen’s able to survive, it can survive on the plant tissue for multiple years.
Speaker 1 • 54:14
So what does that look like? I mean you’re not gonna be digging around looking for it. So how do you see it on the top part of the plant?
Speaker 6 • 54:21
Yeah, really good question. So I typically think of two big times when we see uh indications that you might be dealing with a root or crown rot disease. Uh the first is when the plants are maybe experiencing a bit more heat than they have So right in the spring, things are cool, things are starting off really well. As temperatures start to rise, that puts a bit of stress on the plant. So that kind of big stress event, oftentimes we see plant decline and the one of the first things I look for is a root or crown rot issue. And then the second period, which is arguably the most exciting and important period, is when that plant starts to put on fruit And as those fruit develop, that’s in some ways a stress to the plant as well. And as those fruits develop, we can sometimes see collapse or decline of those plants that have already been infected by root and crown rot. So really looking for those big events in the plant’s life uh if you’re seeing some decline at those periods that might indicate something going on below ground.
Speaker 1 • 55:14
So when that happens then do we dig up one just to check it to see and and if that’s the case what what will we see
Speaker 6 • 55:21
Absolutely. Yep, that’s the best thing you can do. You can pull that plant up, make sure that you get both that root and crown tissue. And one of your best tools in the field is probably going to be a small pocket knife. And that will allow you to To cut into the root and crown tissue. And what you’re looking for, a healthy plant’s gonna have white roots, it’s gonna have a white crown tissue. Anytime we see something ranging from orange to brown to black That’s typically indicative of a disease. So if you’re seeing that color change from that white healthy to brown black, that’s usually indicative of some type of crown or root issue.
Speaker 1 • 55:54
And then if we do have it, dig it up and get rid of it.
Speaker 6 • 55:58
Yeah, unfortunately, because you’ve got that root system impacted, that that plant likely will not be able to recover from that disease. And so you’re not only going to want to remove that plant. look at the nearby plants and then ultimately think about some future rotations of non-strawberry or non-host crops, right? Because you might still have that inoculum in the soil. So it’s a very kind of both short-term and long-term management approach
Speaker 1 • 56:20
Okay, well fingers crossed you don’t find any of that, but that’s what you do if you do find it. Um next you had mentioned um some problems with apple leaves
Speaker 6 • 56:30
Yeah, so there’s there’s kind of a new disease in Apple, although the ironic part is it’s not new. I think it’s probably well over a hundred years old, but it’s it’s kind of new to us because it’s really starting to rear its ugly head in both commercial apple production, but also I see it on plenty of neighborhood uh mallet species when walking my dog. And it’s called Marcenina Leaf Blotch or Leaf Blotch. Oftentimes that’s what growers will refer to it as. And it’s quite diagnostic. This is actually a really great time of year to see it because the leaves start to turn bright yellow. And within that bright yellow on the leaf, we start to see kind of black to purplish blotches. And that’s typically where the fungus is growing. In really severe situations, almost the whole tree can turn yellow or at least a large chunk of the leaves on different branches will turn yellow. So it’s quite diagnostic. And it’s quite devastating to the tree in that it can actually cause the leaves to fall prematurely, so a lot sooner than they’re supposed to fall in the in autumn season. So we’re seeing a lot more of that in apple over the last couple of seasons
Speaker 1 • 57:33
And how is that going to affect the fruit?
Speaker 6 • 57:36
Great question. So if you have fewer leaves on the tree, um right, that’s less kind of photosynthetic material that the tree is able to utilize to benefit those growing and developing fruits And then really I think what we’re seeing is it’s gonna have longer term impacts. So when those leaves fall prematurely due to disease, what we end up is with blind wood, so wood that’s not bearing any leaves. And that makes them a little bit less hardy going into winter, right? We know these apple trees. need to go through an overwintering period before they’re producing for us that following season. And if they’re losing leaves too early, that winter hardiness is going to get reduced. And so that’s going to have some more longer-term impacts on the trees.
Speaker 1 • 58:12
Okay, it’s definitely something to look for. Um and if we do find it, is there something we can do?
Speaker 6 • 58:19
Yeah, that’s the tough part. Uh it’s so common, I think most people will find it now that hopefully I’ve turned folks eyes to the different symptoms. In a in a backyard setting, there’s not too much you can do. I’d say the best tool you have is quite similar to folks who have maybe dealt with something like Apple Scab Because the fungus lives inside of the leaves, when those leaves do fall, raking them up and removing them from under the tree is going to make a huge difference because that’s where the fungus lives. So if you can remove the fungus, you can reduce the disease
Speaker 1 • 58:47
Okay. And should we can we compost those leaves or should we bag them and get rid of them, get rid of them? Can we burn them?
Speaker 6 • 58:55
Yeah, whatever way you can get rid of them is probably gonna be the best thing. The main thing I tell folks are just get the leaves away from them, okay?
Speaker 1 • 59:03
just away. Uh we got an email from James. He has a four year old aronia bush that set a lot of fruit this spring, and sadly in early June most of the fruit yellowed, dried, and dropped off Was this possibly drought and the Arronias just needed water or was this a disease process?
Speaker 6 • 59:25
That’s a great question. So it sounds like since all the fruit fell off and they turned yellow before that happened, to me that sounds a little bit more like something related to environmental stress. So as James mentioned it could be potentially drought. That’s certainly a possibility. Disease will typically impact a couple fruits, right, or a portion of the bush. There are a few diseases that would likely impact the entire bush, but based on the timing and kind of the symptoms that James was seeing, my guess is it could actually be due to an environmental or potential physiological factor uh in the plant itself.
Speaker 1 • 59:59
Okay, thanks for the email, James. If you’ve got a question about your fruit trees, your strawberries, raspberries, all that good stuff. Give us a call, 800-642-1234, or you can send an email to talk at WPR. org. Now the other thing that you sent was black rot on grapes and then with grapes coming up for harvesting, that’s gotta be really important right now.
Speaker 6 • 01:00:24
Yes, yep, I just actually had a phone call about this last week. So yeah, this is kind of the time of the year. Black rot is something I think that our our commercial grape growers have certainly been dealing with over the last few seasons and has really emerged as a concern. I think we’re used to dealing with powdery mildew and downy mildew, these really kind of prolific, visually clear diseases, but black rot I think has kind of unfortunately been lurking in the background And the reason that we care about this disease is because of the impacts it has on the fruit itself. It simply does exactly as the name describes. It causes a literal rot of the fruit. And we’ll start to see symptoms as early as July on green fruits. But as those infections progress, the fruit will actually become almost blackish brown in color, shrivel, and then can completely just call and spread to the other clusters. on that vine pretty quickly. So we’re seeing a little bit more of that, but again, I think it’s very much linked to kind of the warmer seasons we’re having and some of the late season rains we’re having as well.
Speaker 1 • 01:01:24
And uh what does it look like
Speaker 6 • 01:01:27
So great question. So that initial infection period on the fruits themselves when they’re still green, they look kind of like tan spots on the fruit. So they might look a little unassuming if you’re not paying attention to grapes when they’re still green, right? But they look kind of like a tannish to brown lesion on the fruit. As those fruits start to mature, they develop color and become purple let’s say for those red varieties they will start to have little tiny black dots on them and this is actually part of the fungus itself So you’ll notice some black dots and then you will likely notice a kind of brown black coloration on the fruits that will ultimately lead to them shriveling. So they’ll kind of start to look very shriveled and dried out. And that’s a pretty clear sign that you’re dealing with black rot. One of the interesting things about this particular pathogen is you can look for symptoms a little bit earlier, and this is what I’d recommend for folks growing grapes. We oftentimes worry about the fruit as I was mentioning earlier in strawberry, but there are going to be some key signs before fruit’s even formed on grape, and that’s going to be on the leaves. So when the leaves start to get little brown lesions on them, that’s oftentimes the first signs that you’re dealing with black rot. The same way that you might see the brown lesion on the fruit, they’re gonna form on leaves first for the most part. So you can catch it early. and actually probably institute a little bit more preventative practice if you’re able to catch it early on the leaves.
Speaker 1 • 01:02:45
Okay, so what does that preventative practice look like?
Speaker 6 • 01:02:48
Excellent. Yep, so preventative practice is going to look like uh scouting pretty regularly those fruits if you start to see symptoms on the leaves, right? So walking through keeping an eye on things. One thing I always like to emphasize is it’s really easy to just walk past a you know some grapevines and look at the grapes growing. closest to you. I encourage folks to peel back that canopy and look close to the woody tissue. That’s kind of a dark humid area where pathogens thrive. So don’t just look at the fruit that’s nearest to you. dig through that canopy and look for fruit for some of those symptoms. If you’re starting to see or uh those symptoms form or you have a really dense canopy, things like shoot thinning, right, removing some of those shoots and leaves to allow for more air circulation in the canopies really going to help reduce what we would call a conducive environment for that disease. And then if you do start to see infected clusters, you can remove those That will help reduce the overall inoculum load in your grapevines. It might not necessarily present prevent spread to other clusters, but that will help you reduce overall inoculum.
Speaker 1 • 01:03:52
Okay, yeah, and you once you s see the grapes, they turn into little mummies, right? They call them mummies.
Speaker 6 • 01:03:58
Yes, exactly. Little mummy-fried fruits, right? Which is a a great way to describe them because they they truly look like that almost very Halloween-esque
Speaker 1 • 01:04:05
They don’t. Yeah. So you’ll know you have them, but uh yeah, get rid of them. We have a call from Pam in St. Charles, Minnesota. Go right ahead, Pam.
Speaker 7 • 01:04:15
Hi there. Um I have a pear tree that has pear scab and I have four pear trees, but I have one tree that I’m afraid is a affecting the rest of the orchard And I’m getting it cut down this fall and I’ve treated it um last year I treated it four times. I’ve treated it many times each year with neem oil And this year it did not flower, so I thought I was lucky. And I thought, well maybe um it won’t affect the other trees, but it did give me three pears and I could see those three pears had the black velvet um of Periscab. And so I’m afraid it’s gonna transfer and I’m wondering what can I do to keep that from happening?
Speaker 6 • 01:05:04
Great question. Yeah, so Pear Scab is actually quite similar to Apple Scab. So a lot of the same management principles are the same. I would say in your situation with just a few pear trees, the biggest emphasis I can give you is going to be focused on sanitation. That’s going to be the big thing that you can do. By sanitation, I re I mean removing those fruits that are showing those infections And removing any leaves that are showing infections too. So whether that’s when the leaves fall, raking them up and making sure you get them away from the trees That inoculum is already starting in the trees, so it’s not so much an external source we’re trying to manage. It’s managing the fruits and the leaves that you already have producing. So I would also uh again encourage you if you have pruning practices for that pear tree to also do some pruning to increase airflow. Scab tends to like kind of a moist environment, so the more we can allow for more airflow in any canopy, that’s going to reduce stress as well on the trees.
Speaker 1 • 01:06:01
Pam, are you cutting the tree down because of the scab or is there a different reason?
Speaker 7 • 01:06:06
No, I’m cutting it down because the scab.
Speaker 1 • 01:06:12
Do you think Leslie is that is that just a little maybe t too m if she did some of the pruning, maybe that would help her to save the tree?
Speaker 6 • 01:06:20
Yeah, I think if you I think normally for something like SCA we wouldn’t recommend tree removal. It’s something that can usually be managed through uh sanitation practices, sometimes some chemical sprays as well But usually removal of the treat won’t necessarily it certainly could fix the problem, but I think it’s probably a pr a pretty aggressive route to go. So I wouldn’t necessarily recommend that.
Speaker 1 • 01:06:41
Okay, well think about it Pam. Save the tree. Thanks for the call. We appreciate it Um, one of the other things that um we sent tend to see um a lot about a lot is uh fire blight. Are you seeing much of that this year?
Speaker 6 • 01:06:59
Yes, uh unfortunately we are. Fire blight is one of the most devastating diseases of apple trees, and I think anyone who has an apple tree who has dealt with fire blight knows and understands that too painfully well. We have seen it a little bit uh this season, uh and again I think conditions were quite conducive in the spring. uh for that unfortunately. So for folks who are unfamiliar with it, Fireblade is really well named. It quite literally looks like a fire move through your tree. It causes kind of brown to black shoot death And it can move quite rapidly as well. So we always recommend that folks prune out strikes when you see them in the trees. So strikes are just just that, the shoots that have those symptoms. but it can also cause a blossom infection as well, which is typically when we institute most of the management because those open flowers present an opportunity for that bacterium to get in.
Speaker 1 • 01:07:49
Okay. Um any other late summer and fall diseases that we should be looking out for, um, especially, you know, like our apple trees, pear trees, that type of thing, or grapes?
Speaker 6 • 01:08:03
Yep, I’d say the other disease that I got a glimpse of yesterday, which I, as we just kind of dealt with some rain in Madison, is top of mind for me, and that’s bitter rot of apple. Bitterrot is especially common on certain varieties, so honey crisp is a great example of that. But this particular disease is caused by a fungus. And it causes really distinct lesions on the fruit themselves. And oftentimes we see it right around harvest, right? Right as we’re kind of hoping for this perfect fruit. we see this horrific brown looking lesion that starts to form on the fruit. And actually if you were to cut that fruit open, you can actually see that brown tissue moving towards the center or the core of the apple. So it’s quite a devastating disease. It’s not superficial like we might see with Sudoblotch or Fly Spec. This disease actually uh it interferes with the tissue integrity of apple fruits
Speaker 1 • 01:08:54
Now when we see some of these diseases, um obviously it doesn’t look good on the fruit, but is it can we cut them out? Um can we still eat the fruit? Can we use it for applesauce? Um
Speaker 6 • 01:09:06
Yeah, that’s a great question. Yes, you can still process a lot of these fruits. I would say the biggest limiting factor is if the entire apple fruit itself is rotted, and right that’s pretty easy to find out with your first bite or your first cut. It’s your first cut and not your first bite. Um Those fruits aren’t gonna hold up as well. But yeah, a lot of the diseases we see, so even something like apple scab, city blotch, fly spec, they’re relatively superficial. So you can remove that piece of infected skin. You can still eat the apple, you can make a sauce You can make a juice. Um yeah, apples are are are quite resilient fruits.
Speaker 1 • 01:09:38
There’s lots of options out there. So just because it doesn’t look pretty doesn’t mean you have to get rid of it. Um and as far as for fall cleanup, which will be coming up a little sooner than later. Um what should we be doing to make sure that we keep our fruit plants and trees um some that we can help prevent some of those diseases come spring
Speaker 6 • 01:10:01
Yeah, this is a really great question and already a great time to start thinking about it. And this goes for your apple trees, your your grapevines uh your aronia bushes, any of these uh these fruit crops, uh especially for fungal diseases, uh sanitation, I’m gonna say that word again, um, because it’s incredibly important, right? One of the most important principles of managing plant diseases is being able to reduce that initial inoculum. And because we’re dealing with these perennial systems where things overwinter and they start fresh for us again. in the spring, we want to remove as much pathogen as possible. So for an apple grower or grape grower or other small fruit grower, what that looks like is sanitizing. So removing leaves that previously had fungal infections, getting them out of your your your growing area. Also she’ll mention removing some of those mummies too. And those are really easy to spot, especially on something like grapevine, but also apple, because those can harbor a lot of different fungal pathogens. So just removing infected tissue in the fall so that you can get that out of the growing area and start fresh that next season.
Speaker 1 • 01:11:03
And uh again, it just to get rid of ’em, it doesn’t matter what you do with it, just make sure that you get it’s not near the trees or the the plants.
Speaker 6 • 01:11:13
Exactly. Yep, the further away the better. And in some cases, if you’ve got a lot of trees or a lot of bushes, even just getting them down to the ground is sometimes good enough.
Speaker 1 • 01:11:21
It’s better than in the canopy of the tree. But I say the further the better.
Speaker 6 • 01:11:25
And I know this is especially a thing. for something like fire blight where you’re actually pruning out branches, right? That’s a little different than pulling mummies or raking leaves. So again, just getting them down to the ground is going to be a lot more important than uh than just leaving them in the canopy of the tree. But again, the further away you can get it, the better. Those those um branches can even be mulched. That’s certainly an option as well I see folks doing And we don’t have a lot of evidence to say that that’s going to cause much of a risk because you’re breaking down that tissue.
Speaker 1 • 01:11:53
Sure, especially if it’s hot mulch. You don’t have to worry about it as much. Now you mentioned pruning. Um with our fruit trees and and bushes, what’s the best time to do that um to avoid, you know, diseases and also to avoid cutting off those buds for next year?
Speaker 6 • 01:12:11
Yeah, great question. I’d say in terms of managing diseases, um, it’s really tempting to see an infected uh branch or something and then cut it off immediately and and typically that’s what we would recommend but there are some instances where that’s not the best choice. A fire blades one in particular where you have to be really careful Because we know that bacterial produces a lot of ooze, so you don’t want to be cutting into ooze and then spreading that to other trees. So in general, a lot of your dormant pruning is gonna be the best choice for you. So flagging branches now that aren’t looking too good Targeting those in the winter during that dormant pruning period is going to be critical. And then in terms of thinking about that timeline, the other thing to keep in mind if you’re pruning when it’s still a little warm outside is avoiding rain give yourself a buffer against rain. Rain is what’s gonna be bringing those fungal pathogens in and can infect fresh pruning moon cuts. So you wanna prune the drier the better.
Speaker 1 • 01:13:05
And it’s important to clean the the tools that you’re using in between.
Speaker 6 • 01:13:10
Yeah, so that’s there’s been some recent research in that area. Um and uh I guess the short answer is not as important as we thought it was. Oh good. Um I know it’s kind of exciting, right? Because it’s quite time consuming. It is. Even for something like Fireblight. The exception is if you’re cutting into ooze, which I’m gonna tell you I don’t recommend at all for fire blight. If you see ooze, just stay away. Uh but in general it’s actually more important just to get the branches out of the tree there that are impacted versus really focusing on sterilizing those pruning chairs.
Speaker 1 • 01:13:42
Okay, well we’ll leave it at that. Don’t cut into ooze, folks. We’ve been talking to Leslie Howland. She is an associate professor and Extension Specialist of Fruit Crop Pathology at UW Madison. Leslie, thank you so much for sharing all of your expertise with us today. We appreciate that
Speaker 6 • 01:14:00
Thanks, Joe.
Speaker 1 • 01:14:01
You bet. So stick around. We are going to be talking about bone cy. I’m sure you’ve looked at those wonderful little trees in dishes. and wondered how can you do that? Is it easy? Not necessarily, but we’ll tell you how. So stick with us. If you’ve got any questions, you can give us a call. 800-642-1234. And of course, you can send an email. Let’s talk at WPR. org. Stay with us. We’ll be back after a sec. Viewing a boneside tree is like entering a magical world where you’re a giant looking down at a beautiful tree. This is Garden Talk. I’m Jill Nadaux. And up next we’re gonna talk about bone si and what you should know if you’d like to Create one. Back with us is Kevin Stavakin. He’s the owner of Wisco Bonesai, a company that caters to the hobbyist. What would you like to know about caring for one? Are you wondering what kinds of trees work best? Well, give us a call with your questions at 800-642-1234, or you can send an email to talk at Wpr dot org. Hi, Kevin!
Speaker 8 • 01:15:42
Hey Joe.
Speaker 1 • 01:15:44
Thank you so much for being with us. I know you’re you’re on vacation, if I’m not mistaken.
Speaker 8 • 01:15:49
Yeah, yeah. Not not a big one, just up in Waupaca to visit my grandson’s and I’m actually right now sitting at beautiful Hartman Creek State Park for this interview.
Speaker 1 • 01:15:59
Oh lovely. I guess you can’t complain about that too much.
Speaker 8 • 01:16:02
No, not at all.
Speaker 1 • 01:16:04
So what got you interested in bonesai?
Speaker 8 • 01:16:08
Um well I think like a lot of people I’ve kind of always had some cool house plants and that kind of thing, but I was also very into sculpture I had a sculpture studio and that sort of thing and uh just by serendipity I happened to catch a glimpse, literally a glimpse of a bonsai tree one day and uh I just it just knocked me out And I was able to then to combine several passions uh into one. And that’s really the short story.
Speaker 1 • 01:16:33
Sure. Well that makes a lot of sense because it it it is a combination of the two. Um growing in sculpture. Um but if you don’t happen to have a sculpture background like you, you can still Work on bonsai.
Speaker 8 • 01:16:48
Both bonsai can be as easy, as easy as someone wants, or as difficult. And as difficult can get very difficult. But easy can be very easy.
Speaker 1 • 01:16:57
Mm-hmm. Well that’s good to know because it is they are magical. Um they they do attract your attention and I think people would love to have one. Like when you see one, I’m I was just at the state fair not too long ago and there was a wonderful display of the bonsai there. And there were so many people around it, you know, and it it it you just like, oh look at this tiny little this and tiny little that. Um and and like you said, uh when you when I emailed you, um Bonsai is not a house plant. So let’s start with that from the very beginning. So tell us why people need to know that.
Speaker 8 • 01:17:33
Well, uh the most of my customers who have tried bones I without any instruction or anything have just grabbed a tree from one of the big box stores. I won’t name name names. A lot of times those are already dead. Um or in the in the process of dying. But either way they they bring them home They don’t know any better and they bring ’em in into the house and ’cause they want a house decoration. And these trees really need to be outside uh spring, summer, and fall in order to thrive. They can survive inside, but they’ll never thrive. And if we want to apply bonsite techniques to them, they need to be thriving and in optimum health. Um and they won’t have that inside.
Speaker 1 • 01:18:12
Sure. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And we we have to s keep remembering this is a tree.
Speaker 8 • 01:18:18
Yes, a tree, absolutely. Sometimes shrubs we we use shrubs too, but they generally tree form.
Speaker 1 • 01:18:24
Mm-hmm. Exactly. Um, so how did you go from um being interested in it and starting to do it to have a business?
Speaker 8 • 01:18:33
Uh well um I needed to finance my hobby for one thing. Um which was a hobby at that time. But um the other thing was a Japanese substrate. Um a lot of people use imported Japanese substrate and the first thing I said was I refuse to do that and I found many other things that we can use for great effect in growing our trees that does not have to be imported from Japan. So I started making substrate and you can’t buy you can’t buy the components and small um quantities so I started making substrate for just to sell and that’s what launched my uh business.
Speaker 1 • 01:19:10
And and you now then you started with that, but you’ve Huh, forget the pun, forgive the pump branched out, right?
Speaker 8 • 01:19:18
Yeah, yeah. I mean once I I uh started doing that and that became very successful, I just uh then we moved to a b a better location And I was able to build an actual shop, a f a physical shop and and and have a proper garden. So that just slowly grew over the past uh like twelve years. Um I’ve been doing it for 14 years, but the business has been in effect for almost thirteen years because I needed to make substrate.
Speaker 1 • 01:19:43
Sure. Yeah. I think a lot of people find themselves in business because of those kinds of things. Um it goes from a hobby to a b business. Um again it’s it’s Wisco Bonsai and you are located in Sussex. Mm-hmm.
Speaker 8 • 01:19:58
Celtics, Wisconsin, which is Waukeshaw County.
Speaker 1 • 01:20:00
Sure, near Milwaukee, for those who are not uh familiar. And you do have a website, but you don’t sell off the website. You do but it does kind of tell show people what you carry
Speaker 8 • 01:20:11
Oh yeah, everything. It’s uh th those all those exemplary pictures. The trees come and go so much that there’s no point in putting a tree for sale on the website. And I don’t have time to monkey with all that. That’s not what not why I’m into bones eyes for the electronic end of it.
Speaker 1 • 01:20:27
Well, and I it’s probably important for you to talk to people when they come in just so they understand Uh the basics and and um especially if they’re new to the hobby.
Speaker 8 • 01:20:37
Yeah, yeah, I offer like a uh uh it’s called a a bonsai one oh one thing where for twenty five bucks Someone can come in and I’ll tell them as much as they can absorb within an hour of how to grow bonesai in Wisconsin. I don’t waste time on history or other climates. It’s all about what we can do here.
Speaker 1 • 01:20:54
Sure, that makes sense Um, what’s your favorite part about growing bonesai as a hobby?
Speaker 8 • 01:21:01
Mm, favorite part. Seeing them develop I I seeing uh techniques that have been applied years ago or even last year uh come to fruition before my eyes.
Speaker 1 • 01:21:13
Well, it’s not quick though, right?
Speaker 8 • 01:21:15
No. No, I mean you can bend uh y with uh you can take uh like a pine tree or a conifer and you can throw a style on that tree all at once and have it really close to being finished. So that can go quick, but then the the the small branch ramification takes a long time. But you can take a big juniper. and throw it into shape in one day and it’s gonna look pretty dang cool.
Speaker 1 • 01:21:35
Really? Really.
Speaker 8 • 01:21:36
Yeah, yeah. But then but then we we need further interior growth and backbutting and filling out after that step. So it’ll look cool.
Speaker 1 • 01:21:45
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 8 • 01:21:45
Um, but it’ll it’ll take a while to get really good.
Speaker 1 • 01:21:48
Mm-hmm Um and well let’s just start with the basics now. For someone who doesn’t know much about it, um, they’ve seen ’em, they’re gorgeous. Um well first Who shouldn’t have a bone si? Maybe we should start there.
Speaker 8 • 01:22:02
Well maybe apartment dwellers, people who don’t have someplace to have them. That’s really what a bio tiny you know you can do with indoor lights But um for tropical material. But I don’t deal in any tropical material. I just deal in things that grow well in Wis Wisconsin. Um So so yeah, I kind of avoid um some of the pitfalls that come with, you know, growing indoor trees. So so people who have indoor situations They can get something to maybe enjoy, but it’s gonna be really hard to quote unquote do bonsai.
Speaker 1 • 01:22:34
Okay. All right. So um should somebody start with one that’s already potted or is it best to s to start create your own?
Speaker 8 • 01:22:44
Um well that depends on the time of year. Like if people are gonna want to get one like right now, you can’t re-pot anything right now into a pot. So Things like conifers can be styled right now and then repotted next year. So it kind of depends on what time of year you’re coming into it. Like this coming spring, and I do it every spring, I do uh beginner bones I where we take um a juniper or some similar type tree out of the nursery pot and into its first bonsai pot. And that is the biggest skill that anyone can have is getting that tree the roots reduced and into its first small container. Having that skill would take you quite a ways um in your journey.
Speaker 1 • 01:23:26
Because you are reducing that root system by a lot. Boneside pots are very small.
Speaker 8 • 01:23:34
step those down. So if it’s in like say a a ten gallon nursery can and we want to get it into a one gallon bonsai pot, that’s gonna take a uh a couple of s subsequent repotting. So we We knock it down to a size and then a couple years later we can get it we can remove more roots. So it’s a kind of a gradual thing depending on how much you’re starting with.
Speaker 1 • 01:23:55
So it’s basically the opposite of what we do with regular houseplants. So we want them to grow. So we pick them from a small container to a larger one and to a larger one. But with the bonesai we take it from a larger container down to a smaller one, to a smaller one.
Speaker 8 • 01:24:11
Yeah, yeah. But sometimes we sometimes we do like we do with po with houseplants, if we have just a little stick in a pot, uh huh. We might put it in something larger and then something larger and then something larger. And then later reduce it back down once our trunk gets thicker.
Speaker 1 • 01:24:25
Okay. So that can be kind of complicated sounding.
Speaker 8 • 01:24:31
It kinda depends on w you know, we start with the trunk and the branches can all be built afterward, but we gotta really start with a trunk. So if you’ve got a skinny little trunk, blow it up, chop it down. And go from there.
Speaker 1 • 01:24:43
Okay. Well, how do you select a tree species for this?
Speaker 8 • 01:24:48
Uh it’s um any tree species can work Um the only limit limitations are things like um for example our sugar maples. Our sugar maples can have ch leafs the size of dinner plates. Yeah and and I’ve never seen anyone get those really down to bonsai size and things we do with the trees really do reduce the leaf size like elms and other maples we can do things to get that leaf smaller and smaller and smaller over time to be in scale with the tree. So our our red maples, I mean I’m sorry, our sugar maples aren’t very good at that. Our white pines are n not really good at that. Um so it all depends on how small we can get the foliage to be in scale with the tree.
Speaker 1 • 01:25:35
Mm-hmm. Um with a deciduous tree, they drop their leaves just like they would normally, right?
Speaker 8 • 01:25:42
Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1 • 01:25:44
Uh-huh. Um and so what do you look for when you selecting? You got you figured out what you want Now you’re gonna go out and pick out one. So what are you looking for as far as the characteristics of that tree that would make a really good bonsai?
Speaker 8 • 01:26:00
The trunk. Period. Full stop the trunk. Unless you’re gonna grow the trunk out. But if I’m at a nursery or a a bond I show and I want something to start with, it’s gonna have of uh the trunk at the diameter that I would like. Because once they’re in a bonsai pot, that trunk doesn’t grow much, but we can do a lot with growing branches and manipulating branches. So the trunk is really the s the starting point.
Speaker 1 • 01:26:24
Okay.
Speaker 8 • 01:26:25
Because everything else can be built on that.
Speaker 1 • 01:26:27
Okay. Does it so the size, does it the way it looks have anything to do with it?
Speaker 8 • 01:26:31
Oh sure, yeah, yeah. So you w you want girth on the trunk, but um having uh depending on what kind of styles you’re looking at, sometimes a very straight, upright, formal trunk is very nice. for a stately tree that you might see out in the middle of of a field without any environmental hazards happening to it. But sometimes you really want something that looks like it’s gone through a struggle and then you’re looking for a gnarly, twisted, bent uh trunk.
Speaker 1 • 01:26:58
Sure, sure.
Speaker 8 • 01:26:59
Yeah.
Speaker 1 • 01:26:59
Uh we’re talking about bonsai trees today with Kevin Stavakin. He’s the owner of Wisco Bonesai. If you’ve got questions about how to care for one, what to look for, um, how to put one together, please give us a call, 800-642. one two three four and of course you can send us an email that’s talk at WPR. org. Okay, so we’ve got our tree, we’ve got it picked out and say it’s time to put it in its pretty pot, okay. Um how do we go ahead and select those?
Speaker 8 • 01:27:35
Well um that’s gonna depend on the size of the tree. So I in j in j Japan they have formulas saying if a tree is X number of whatever centimeters in diameter, the pot should be this size.
Speaker 1 • 01:27:48
Okay.
Speaker 8 • 01:27:49
If the tree is X number of centimeters, I’m saying centimeters because they do this in JoePath. If it’s X number of centimeters tall Then it should be in a pot this this wide, this this this deep. And I eschew all of that. What looks right looks right We don’t we don’t need to complicate anything, but those who are interested in formulas and and bonsai by numbers are welcome to follow the Japan technique because they’ll tell you how to build a tree Uh, into a nice little triangle. Of course. Dimensions will be correct. Yes, yes. But here in North America, we’ve been developing our own bonsai style.
Speaker 1 • 01:28:28
Okay. I mean i is Like a lot of things with uh Japanese designs about balance, right? I mean, is that still kind of the the basis
Speaker 8 • 01:28:38
Sure, sure. A lot of what they say makes sense, but when it becomes dogma then then I’m not as crazy about it. But yes, having your first having your first lowest branch being your biggest branch is nice. It makes sense. It’s a welcoming And your branches should be smaller as they go up the tree and thinner. That just makes sense, you know?
Speaker 1 • 01:28:57
Yes.
Speaker 8 • 01:28:58
Um no one’s arguing with that.
Speaker 1 • 01:29:00
Sure. Gotcha. Um okay, so we’ve got our pot. Now it’s gotta be you’ve got to put something in it. You’ve got you were talking a little bit about it earlier, but what’s actually in that um media that you’re using?
Speaker 8 • 01:29:13
Well the main thing is granular particles. So there’s no there’s no dirt. Um my mix is comp comprised of uh uh 1 eighth to 1 quarter size particles of pumice, lava, hadite, and uh uh kiln-dried fir bark. Um with a little pinch of horticult horticultural charcoal. I can’t I don’t know how to horticultural charcoal for uh just to sweeten up the pot a little bit. Um So that that’s my my substrate mix. Very simple. Anyone’s welcome to copy it. That’s all the less I have to sell if they do. Um and then the other stuff, like the stuff from Japan, they uh the Akadama and things like that. And those are volcanic products. Um but they use them in Japan ’cause they’re cheap and plentiful. Sure. Uh neither one of which are they here.
Speaker 1 • 01:30:04
Right.
Speaker 8 • 01:30:05
They’re expensive and hard to source. Really expensive So um yeah, so we put it in something granular and that’s so that it drains a lot. Um each each particle grabs onto water and holds it and nutrients and releases it back to the tree in between waterings. And um but every time we water, so much water runs through that pot because we have oversized drainage holes. It may seem wasteful, but that’s actually good because as those particles are grabbing onto water, Oxygen is also passing through that pot. And that’s the big difference with bonesai versus houseplants is the aeration of the roots Um bonsai trees get way more aeration than anything in dirt. And that’s just as important as water.
Speaker 1 • 01:30:49
Well you have fewer roots, so
Speaker 8 • 01:30:51
I No, no.
Speaker 1 • 01:30:53
No, no, okay.
Speaker 8 • 01:31:05
Every time we cut one of those fat roots, a network of fine roots come out of that and grow into the substrate because of what they’re planted in. So we end up with a pot full of micro roots, which are far better than a pot full of fat roots.
Speaker 1 • 01:31:19
Ah, that makes much more sense then. Yes. I see. Okay. And as far as the watering goes now, I believe you totally immerse the plant. Is that correct?
Speaker 8 • 01:31:30
No. You can do that if you if you have a tree that’s in dire need of repotting, it’s root bound. Then you can soak that pot. No, no, we just over over just water over the top of the substrate.
Speaker 1 • 01:31:43
Okay.
Speaker 8 • 01:31:44
Um and again, if you soak the pot, you’re not gonna get that oxygen exchange.
Speaker 1 • 01:31:49
Okay
Speaker 8 • 01:31:49
I mean you you can pick it up, let it drain out and oxygen will get pulled through by gravity. Um but no, we uh water just from overhead, you know, over over the top of the substrate. We water it, come back, water it again, you know. I if I’m going down the bench I’ll water the whole bench and I’ll come back and do it again because it’s drained out and the particles can maybe grab a little more water. And that that that is done kind of daily.
Speaker 1 • 01:32:11
Okay. Okay We get an email from Vic asking what are some successful ways to overwinter deciduous and evergreen bonsai?
Speaker 8 • 01:32:23
Hey Vic. Uh well here you go. Uh stick ’em in the garage. Simple as that. Yeah. Stick ’em in the garage, stick ’em in a shed. Um you most of what you’re gonna get, like I’m gonna assume that you’re maybe starting with something you’re digging up. or getting from a nursery center. It’s already hardy here in Wisconsin. We’re zone five, depending on where I’m maybe zone four. I’m speaking southeastern Wisconsin, zone five, six, whatever. Um so anything that’s a zone you know, five or six all the way down to, you know, zone two is easily going in the garage. Zone zone two stuff can just go on the ground um blocked from the wind, things like um Oh, Eastern White Cedars are super hardy and larches are super hardy. So overwintering those is pretty easy, but you also want to make sure that you water them occasionally in the winter Um, not every day by any means, maybe every couple two weeks. Give ’em a good watering and check ’em. Or you can put pile snow on top of the pot. And if the s if the snow melts, then it took the water. If the snow’s not melting it didn’t it wasn’t able to take it. So
Speaker 1 • 01:33:27
And we don’t have to worry about the roots freezing and they can they can freeze the end thaw.
Speaker 8 • 01:33:34
Okay. If it’s a hardy tree. If it’s a hardy tree.
Speaker 5 • 01:33:36
Okay.
Speaker 8 • 01:33:36
That’s the big the the big difference. You’re not gonna take um Oh, say like maybe a Japanese maple and get away with that with. They have a little bit more protection for that. You might not want to let them freeze solid.
Speaker 7 • 01:33:47
Okay.
Speaker 8 • 01:33:48
Um But I will say that before I put away my deciduous and my evergreen or my conifers in the winter, I let them all get bit by a couple freezes.
Speaker 1 • 01:33:57
Oh, okay.
Speaker 8 • 01:33:58
And just to kick off dormancy. Because if you put ’em away in the garage and they haven’t really gotten super cold yet, dormancy may have a hard time setting in because they are protected. So let ’em get bit a couple of times and put ’em away.
Speaker 1 • 01:34:12
Well that makes sense.
Speaker 8 • 01:34:13
And how do you know when it’s time They don’t need light, sorry.
Speaker 1 • 01:34:16
How d how do you know when it’s time to take them back out?
Speaker 8 • 01:34:19
Oh when your temperatures are above freezing.
Speaker 1 • 01:34:21
Above freezing.
Speaker 8 • 01:34:22
Yeah, yeah. And so with your deciduous trees, um once those buds open, they’re gonna want light, otherwise you’re gonna get really long internodes being the space between leaves as they reach for light. So once those buds start opening and showing, you really want to get ’em out in the light. I try to keep my deciduous and such as cold as possible for as long as possible because of all of our false start springs.
Speaker 1 • 01:34:46
True. It seems to be happening a lot more lately.
Speaker 8 • 01:34:50
Yeah, those late freezes are just awful. I’ve lost trees because of it. Oh yeah and I got a I have a better system now for next year. Everything’s on wheels. Wheel it in, wheel it out.
Speaker 1 • 01:35:01
Yes, I think that a lot of people are uh gonna be joining you with that for all kinds of things so wonderful. Now let’s get to the shaping part of it because that’s the that’s the whole fun part um about a bone si and that’s the the key. Now, when you select your tree, do you have an idea of what that shape is going to look like at the end? Or do you just kind of let it kind of flow as you as it grows?
Speaker 8 • 01:35:26
Well kind of both. Um so you have to be attracted to the to the tree in the first place. It’s i it’s harder to just take something that looks like nothing that you don’t have any idea of about. So you’ve already gotten a attraction to the tree for some reason. Um so so as far as the future styling goes, you’re gonna work off of what what that tree was kind of showing you when you first saw it, unless it’s like a stick in a pot. I’m talking something that’s got a little something to it.
Speaker 1 • 01:35:52
Yes
Speaker 8 • 01:35:53
And and something attractive to you that to you, then um over time we do let the tree just be a tree. So a lot of people like to graft and do other crazy things that I’m like, well why would you buy a Maserati and put a Porsche engine in it. No, you don’t got a graft. Just use a different species then. Uh that’s just how I I feel. Just let the tree be a t be a tree for a while and embrace what attracted to you to it in the first place and add and so abtract to that as time goes on.
Speaker 1 • 01:36:22
Okay. Um and when does the wire um ’cause you all you always notice the wire when you’re you’re looking at a bone side, when does that come in?
Speaker 8 • 01:36:30
Well you you want to wire the branches when you want to either their orientation or their direction. And so So we wire them for that and then depending on the species, the wire can stay on uh for deciduous trees maybe only like a month before it starts cutting in Um some conifers the wire might be on for two to three years before that branch will actually set.
Speaker 1 • 01:36:59
Sure, sure.
Speaker 8 • 01:37:03
So we’re tearing tissues And once that tissue is healed, we can take the wire off.
Speaker 1 • 01:37:06
Gotcha. Um we’ve got Scott and Elko with a really quick question because we’re just about out of time. Go ahead, Scott.
Speaker 8 • 01:37:13
What is the best fertilizer for bone-sized trees? Okay. Well, um, for conifers I like to uh use something with uh a little acid to it. So there are several mass market brands out there. I love Dr. Earth. um acid lovers and that’s for conifers, maples, uh zaleas, and then everything else, any all purpose but granular. Um granular, organic fertilizer um is the way to go. If people want to use liquid you can. Um you can use any kind of miracle grow, but you do it weekly weekly, meaning a weak solution once a week. And by weak solution I mean about half strength. So half strength once a week. Weekly weekly. Weekly weekly. Eve remember. Weekly, weekly. Yeah, most most most people have Miracle Grow uh on their shelf for their house house plants. Perfectly fine to use. But a better option is the organic granular fertilizer.
Speaker 1 • 01:38:10
Okay. Thank you so much, Scott. We appreciate that call. Um and Lisa emailed wondering, are boneside trees normally 40 to 60 foot trees in nature?
Speaker 8 • 01:38:21
Well yeah, if we if we set one free uh back into the wild, it will do what a tree does.
Speaker 1 • 01:38:26
It’ll grow. Yeah, good little girl. Oh my gosh. Well that went really, really fast, Kevin. I really yeah, I really appreciate you taking the time to tell us uh uh about bonesai Um it’s such a beautiful art and uh we appreciate you sharing that with us.
Speaker 8 • 01:38:44
W but I have uh uh uh uh time for two quick plugs for the local uh the bonesai clubs. Yes. People should know that there’s bonsai clubs around from the fine. There’s uh Fox Valley Green Bay has a club, Milwaukee has the Milwaukee Bonsai Society, Madison has the Badger Bonsai Society. Lots of resources out there for people to to check it out.
Speaker 1 • 01:39:02
Yeah, and that’s the best place to learn too. So um if you’re interested, check it out. All right. We’ve been talking. All right, thank you, Kevin. We’ve been talking to Kevin Stavakin. He’s the owner of Wisco Bonesai. And uh if you look it up, I think he has lots of info on his website also. Um just a shout out to to Jeff Robbins for being our technical director today and for Claire Nipert for being my technical director. Thank you so much uh for listening and we’ll be back again next week.
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