On Thursday, July 9 I posted some thoughts on Facebook. In seven paragraphs I expressed my negative feelings about the prospects of a Palestinian State in Judaea and Samaria, and why I believe that international expectations of Israel are not just unreasonable, but a threat to its survival. The post attracted a fair amount of reaction, both supportive and critical. I try to maintain communication with a broad swathe of people who care about Israel, including many whose views are different from mine and I’m grateful to all those who chose to share their thoughts.
I think that both the post and the discussion it provoked is worth bringing to readers here. So today’s article contains the post and several of the comment threads that it spawned. Please let me know what you think.
The prospect of Judaea and Samaria under Palestinian control is terrifying. What Israel offered in 2000 and 2008 no longer seems feasible. We’ve seen what disengagement in Gaza led to. We’ve seen what happened in Lebanon after Israel pulled out in 2000 and again in 2008.
We have seen that border regions abandoned by Israel will be occupied by those devoted to Israel’s annihilation. Once given up, the world will treat any Israeli return, no matter how necessary as Naqba and genocide.
Many say, “Let them have a state and things will be different.” The evidence shows us that a weak state (think Lebanon) will be overrun by extremists. A strong state will most likely be led by Hamas. Neither outcome is compatible with Israel’s survival.
The status quo at the moment is the least bad situation for Israel. Continued violence by Palestinians will ensure no foreseeable Israeli government will agree to a Palestinian state.
An end to Palestinian violence (which as a practical matter depends on the collapse of the regime in Tehran) could open up possibilities for a state a generation from now. However, the Turkish regime may be waiting in the wings to ensure the armed struggle against Israel continues.
The feasibility of two states west of the Jordan always relied on a nonexistent willingness by both parties to coexist in peace. The absence of that willingness (and the destruction of Europe’s Jews) is what led to the idea of partition in the first place. But paradoxically, partition (ie two states) is not feasible without a commitment to coexistence.
The alternative is what we have: Israeli security control in Judaea and Samaria for the foreseeable future. Israel can do it better than the present government, but fundamentally, what the world is demanding of Israel is to place itself on the altar, hand the knife to Hamas and trust that God will stay their hand and provide a ram…
(Liked by 46, one care, and one sad face)
Don Smith pointed out the fact that Canada, among other countries chose to respond to October 7, and the war that followed, by recognizing the state of Palestine. This is one reason why the situation is so worrisome.
After the last three years & the ongoing battle with Iran & it’s Axis of Evil Why Would Anyone In Their Right Mind think the 2 state solution was on the table except as a ludicrous political position of the EU/Can/UK flunkies? The only solution is the destruction of the Islamic Jihad Ayatollah’s & IRGC so that maybe 20-30yrs down the road after the long taught Shaheed Programing is disabled peace can be considered again. (liked by 4)
Andrea Bergman pointed out that the expectations put on Israel would not be put on any other country.
What kills me about this is that if it were any other country faced with these decisions the world would completely understand and be supportive. But Israel can’t possibly have the space to do what it needs to do in the face of ever-entrenched animosity from its neighbours. (liked by 9)
which led to the following exchange:
Hmmm... Many of the Public Speakers on Israel’s side have publicly chastised Israel for not protecting itself in the press/social media & that includes it’s own retired spokes people
yes, Israel could definitely do a much better job on the PR front. But I’m not sure this changes the hypocrisy of the rest of the world. Some things should not have to be explained, especially after October 7th.
that the argument the Knesset/IDF made to themselves & global antisemitisms gone nuts as a result
so you’re blaming the current wave of antisemitism on Israel’s lack of PR strategy? That’s a bit misguided.
No! There’s no doubt Iran/Proxies & many other Arab Countries & the wealthy have invested heavily to be very sure but the IDF/Knesset hasn’t soo
there are also deep underlying prejudices against Jews that people have (and don’t even realize they have) that have reemerged in the current climate.
Egregious double standard.
Noah Tepperman raised the issue of violence by Israelis against Palestinian Arabs in Judaea and Samaria:
If we’re going to have this conversation (and there’s no reason we shouldn’t) we must have the WHOLE conversation. That means also addressing Israeli violence, and the roles played by Israeli police and security forces, the IDF, bureaucrats and elected leaders.
More and more Israelis are demanding that this be confronted - and so should we in the Diaspora.
Image: Israeli Protests against Jewish violence in Judaea and Samaria — Source: Noah Tepperman (4 likes and a care)
This comment led to the following conversation
Andrea Ritter to Noah Tepperman
while you are right that violence instigated by Jews against Palestinians is a scourge that must be addressed, I don’t believe it’s germane to David’s point. I concur that unchecked settler violence could threaten Israeli security, but I don’t believe it has ever stood in the way of Palestinian statehood.
Suzi Shore Sauvé to Noah Tepperman
you think this just applies to Israel? The corrupt police, government…this is the least of the concerns, our safety needs to come first, we have put the needs of others ahead of our own for far too long. It’s enough. No one else cares about us . The rest can come in time, once we have some stability. To me, these are separate issues. With that being said, yes it’s time to shut down settler violence.
If the Palestinians had never started attacking the settlers years ago there would not now be revenge settler violence.
You’re absolutely right. The Palestinians should have welcomed the settlers with open arms.
But I still don’t understand the phenomenon. The Palestinians are losing land while the settlers are gaining it, so you’d think they’d be filled with joy rather than rage.
And what’s with people cosplaying as IDF soldiers? Impersonating someone you’re not usually carries serious penalties.
Ultimately, many people who use the biblical name for the West Bank view Palestinian control of the territory as frightening.
Noah Tepperman to Andrea Ritter
- I think that the changes to (at least portions of) the settler movement over the last 15-20 years mean that the movement now contributes both direct and indirect major obstacles to Palestinian statehood in a way that is a relatively new develop.
Noah Tepperman to Debbie Davis
- revenge is a pretty lousy justification, but that aside, from what I understand this has nothing to do with revenge.
David Roytenberg to Noah Tepperman
totally agree. The present government has undermined security in Judaea and Samaria by condoning lawless behaviour by Jews against Arabs.
Under the previous short-lived Bennett government, the issue was on the agenda, but they should have done better.
I pray that a new government after the election will come to grips with it. It’s the least Israel can do, given that Israel will be in control of security in those areas for the foreseeable future.
That security should be ruthlessly enforced against everyone who violates the peace, Jews as well as Arabs.
Noah Tepperman to David Roytenberg
- I wish I’d written that - it’s moral and inspiring, and Jewish in the best possible way.
David Roytenberg to Noah Tepperman
thankyou for your kind words.
Jordan was and is the 2 state solution. (liked by 5)
Jon Karp pointed out that the fears expressed in the original post do not address the needs of the Palestinians who live in Judaea and Samaria
Palestinians living in the West Bank also require full citizenship rights in a state, some state. They cannot go on forever as a subject population. I fully see your argument from the POV of Israel and Israelis but that does nothing to address the legitimate needs and rights of Palestinians. Jordan won’t have them. The status quo “autonomy” under the PO is less and less feasible. Israel can’t make them its citizens. So what is the answer? I know the right questions but I don’t know the right answer. (liked by 5)
This drew two comments:
The Palestinians need to create a stable state in which they can have full citizenship rights. In part this requires them to give up on destroying Israel. The ball’s in their court. It always has been. Not up to Israel to create a stable state for them.
there are a number of possible answers. All are deemed beyond the pale. But such solutions could be better than the status quo for the Palestinians.
Answer number one is emigration. If life under Israeli rule doesn’t suit them they can seek another place to live. Lots of them have done just that. It is not PC to point this out, but it’s true nonetheless.
Answer number two is governance by a state friendly to Israel. President Trump’s board of peace is a possible example. If such a government succeeded in removing Hamas from power in Gaza that would be a huge benefit to the Palestinians (in my judgment).
It’s hard to imagine Israel trusting the entity created by the board of peace to govern Judaea and Samaria, but success in Gaza might open up such a possibility.
Other possible futures would be worse for both Palestinians and Israelis and I won’t discuss them here.
Mallary Segall said that the outcome of the Gaza disengagement proves that Palestinians don’t deserve a state.
Giving them Gaza showed what they do with a state. They don’t deserve a state. If I said what they really deserved, my account would be shut down. (2 likes)
John Coelho suggested that security could be maintained without Jewish residents.
How about leave the IDF there but withdraw settlements? If a settelment is near the Green line, annex it if further in abandon it but leave the IDF in area C. and much od Gaza. (2 likes)
Harold Kimmel pointed out that 78 years of war have consequences and that when Arab states controlled the land, no state of Palestine was demanded or established.
It’s a religious war. No amount of land short of EVERYTHING will stop it. The obsessive nature of Europe’s interest is an extension of age old antisemitism. So here you have Islam partnering with Western antisemitism to mount a campaign against Israel the size of a tsunami about to break onshore. These Arabs never had self determination. When Jordan seized Judea and Samaria in 1948 no Palestinian state was created and none was asked for. The same went for Gaza when seized by Egypt at the same time. Once these Arabs were under the rule of a Muslim land the issue of “Palestine” and all it has come to mean, and all that it is being used for by bad actors looking for reasons to divide the West, disappears. Gaza was a very expensive litmus test to find out what most of us already knew. Who ever is worried about Arabs in Judea and Samaria being stateless, there of course is a solution of limited autonomy but Israel must have the ability to go in and root out terrorists before they begin to launch missiles. There is a price anywhere in the world for trying to kill a people for 78 years. This choice was theirs, as was the rejection of the partition in ‘48. Never forget that from ‘48 on when it came down to it no Arab leader would accept a compromise, it had to be everything. Even Arafat confided in Clinton that any compromise would lead to his assassination. The Arabs have an endless amount of land. The largest percentage of these Arabs arrived here during the British Mandate period. Most have been here no longer than the majority of Jews. It has been their extremism which has crafted their fate, not Israel. Meanwhile, 850,000 Jews were kicked out of Arab lands in 1948, many from communities that were 2,000 years old. Nothing. Crickets. And Europe who killed off it’s Jews and made no effort to resettle the surviving remnant now feel they hold a moral high ground to critique Israel’s struggle to survive. Palestine is East of the Jordan, all tantrums acknowledged but rejected as insufficient cause to die over. (4 likes)
Larry Derfner challenged the core premise of my post, insisting that the present situation is much worse than when Hamas controlled Gaza and Hezbollah controlled Lebanon.
The settlement enterprise -- its growth and daily murderous savagery, all enthusiastically backed by the Kahanist Netanyahu gov’t -- gives the lie to the idea that this gov’t wants peace in the West Bank. It wants expulsion, just like it does in Gaza. In S. Lebanon, the Netanyahu govt’s policy is maximum death and destruction. If you think a country led by Judeonazis like these wants peace, there’s nothing to say. Remember, Israel wasn’t like this before Oct. 7. Back then, Israel didn’t fight forever wars, it didn’t seek to occupy every inch of enemy territory -- it “mowed the lawn,” it “managed the conflict.” What were the results? A fuck of a lot better than the results this gov’t has produced. A good Israel is good for the Jews, a bad Israel is bad for the Jews, and the current Israel is the worst one ever, by light years. It’s incited so much anti-Semitism, it’s created so many anti-Semites, it’s caused so many former, lifelong friends of Israel’s, Jews and gentiles, to turn their backs on us. And you want Israel to occupy the West Bank, Gaza and S. Lebanon (and Iran? and Yemen?) indefinitely. Well, as the father of a young man who has done about 500 days of reserve duty on various fronts since Oct. 7, I’m utterly sick and tired of Diaspora Jews telling us to fight on. You’re really, really, really out of your depth. (1 sad face)
I gave this response:
David Roytenberg to Larry Derfner
I have great respect for your point of view even where I strongly disagree as here. There are members of my family in the IDF and I do take your point that the war has an indelible effect on them and on everyone who is sent into battle.
I also agree that the present government has enabled violence by Jewish terrorists in Judaea and Samaria in a way that is deeply harmful to any prospect of peace and damaging to Israel’s international standing.
I pray for a new government that will pursue a policy that keeps the peace in Judaea and Samaria and will treat all violent actors with equal severity, whether Arab or Jewish.
As Israel faces growing international pressure and Jewish communities world-wide are buffeted by global hostility to Israel’s wars, people who care about Israel and the Jewish people wrestle with how to respond. As they do so, different ideas about what should be done are expressed in debate. When people who care about Israel disagree, the argument is for the sake of heaven, as they say in the Talmud.
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As fighting ramps up again in the Persian gulf, I am sure many share my concerns about the prospect of renewed attacks on Israel. I continue to pray for the safety and success of the IDF.
The byzantine diplomatic maneuvering between the US and Iran will apparently continue in spite of the renewed fighting. The prospects for the world economy remain uncertain. CENTCOM reports that the Strait of Hormuz is open while the Iranians say that it is closed. Whether any ships will chance it remains to be seen. As I send this out, a new wave of American attacks on Iran has just been announced.
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