Interview with Adam Rioux

Aaron: All right, what’s up, everybody? I am sitting here with filmmaker Adam Rioux. He’s got a fantastic new film called Urchins that’s going to be in theaters really soon, and he’s also doing a roadshow tour. So I’m super excited to sit down and talk a little bit about roadshow touring in the world of do-it-yourself filmmaking. Adam, how are you doing today, man?

Adam: Doing great, Aaron. Yeah, let’s get into it. I mean, this is the new way for indie filmmakers.

Aaron: Yeah, I mean, it really is. It’s exciting to be sort of on the cutting edge, I guess. Let’s start by letting the audience know a little bit about your film. What is it? How’d you make it? What was the budget? How did we get here?

Adam: So it’s a coming-of-age film that’s very much in the drama-comedy world. It’s very irreverent, just kids hanging out and having fun. We filmed it all in Florida, and I’m originally from Florida, so it’s kind of my love letter to the state. A lot of the world, the experiences, and the people that I grew up around and met along the way all got boiled down into this film.

We made it last year, exactly around this time in June. It was a real small budget, real small team. We probably had about 11 crew members out there, a very limited cast, and we just traveled around Florida and made it as scrappy as possible.

Yeah, dude, it was a blast to make. It was also the most stressful thing I’ve ever done in my entire life because when you’re limited on budget and resources, you’ve got to figure out how to make a full feature film with everything pressing on you. But we finished it up, and now we’re excited to show everybody in theaters.

Aaron: Is this your first feature?

Adam: First feature, yeah. I’d done some shorts and music videos and a bunch of commercial stuff, but making the jump to features... I kind of thought it would be like five times the difficulty of a short. It’s actually more like twenty-five times harder because everything compounds, and when it compounds, you don’t really get any breaks.

Aaron: You know, it’s awesome to be able to talk to you because we’re basically at the exact same stage of our careers. While I get what you’re saying about the “times twenty-five,” there’s also a part of me that feels like... this would be the corporate lingo... the activation energy required to start a short is actually the same as starting a feature.

So anytime I think, “Should I make another short film?” it’s like, why don’t I just make a feature? It’s just three times more days.

Adam: I think mentally it seems that way, but then when you try and get other people on board, that’s when it starts getting more difficult if you don’t have resources. At least that’s what I found. Some of the key department heads might be a little easier, but once you start getting down to every person, it’s like, “Oh wait, this person doesn’t have the time to come hang out for three weeks.” They could do it for a weekend, but not for three weeks.

Aaron: Big facts. Big facts. You’re very, magnanimous. I’m glad you’re thinking about everybody involved here. Clearly, I was thinking about myself. lol

Talk a little bit about the release of Urchins. What was your strategy as you were finishing the film? Did you do a festival run with this one?

Adam: Yeah, so we did not do a festival run. This is actually probably my first time ever admitting this publicly, but we didn’t get into any festivals.

Granted, we didn’t submit to all the festivals, but we submitted to a lot that we thought we had a really great chance at, and nobody wanted to throw us a bone.

I think the festival system, not to be super controversial, is a changing ecosystem that maybe isn’t favoring indie filmmakers the way it used to. Every year it’s getting tougher. I don’t want to sound jaded because of my own experiences, but I just think it’s changed too much. The whole industry has changed, and you have to be willing to go out and do this yourself.

We had originally factored festivals pretty heavily into our promotional run and what we were going to do. Then, as it became clear that it wasn’t going to work, we said, “Well, our social media is showing us that people want to see this, so let’s figure out how to get it out there ourselves,” and just do screenings on our own.

Aaron: In your experience, what is it about the festival process that’s changed, particularly over the last ten to fifteen years?

Adam: I think it’s kind of a waterfall system that started at the top with the industry. Old Hollywood is dying, and the traditional methods of getting a film out there and figuring out your audience are changing rapidly.

To be honest, the people at the top don’t know how to keep up with it. They don’t know what Gen Z wants. They don’t know what millennials want. They don’t really know anything. That’s why most distribution deals right now kind of suck, and nobody takes them. They’re trying to figure it out.

One of the ways they’ve responded is by infesting the film festival system. You’ll see it. I was at Sundance this past year, and no shade to Sundance, because I think this is happening across most festivals. You’ve got corporate sponsors everywhere, all the top agencies throwing parties and opening houses, and I’ve heard through the grapevine that a lot of these people have ways of getting projects in front of programmers.

Then you’ve also got A-list talent showing up in numbers that you never used to see. Projects with five A-listers attached used to not be the norm at festivals that were supposed to champion independent films.

I think it started at the top, and it’s just spiraled down. Everybody is trying to grab a bigger piece of the larger industry, and indie filmmakers just keep getting pushed further and further down the rungs of the ladder.

Aaron: Yeah, I have to agree with you. I constantly go back and forth because I think festivals still serve a purpose within the greater ecosystem. I think regional festivals, in particular, can really do so much for localized markets.

But I think it’s a big problem when Sundance, the premier film festival here in the United States, is accepting close to 17,000 submissions every single year from people who are paying money to submit their films, and they’re not transparent about how many of the selected films came from blind submissions. Because I can assure you, it’s around 20 to 25 percent.

I think that’s frankly abusive and exploitative. When you’re turning the creators into your customers, it gets into some dicey territory.

So I have to agree with you. I also see the way the glamour and influence of the big five film festivals here in North America trickle down through the regional festival circuit as well. It’s definitely something filmmakers need to be aware of and really conscious about.

I’m curious, at what point did you begin to shift your mentality to, “I’ve got to do this myself,” which I think is a really beautiful, empowering stance to take?

Adam: I think it happened when I started looking at the upcoming festivals that were opening for submissions. I was like, “Okay, this is a couple thousand dollars in submission fees.” Then they’re spread all over the place, they’re months away, and I started asking myself, “Even if we get into one of these, is it really prioritizing our film? Is it giving me a good chance to get my team there so we can celebrate it?”

If it plays at a great festival that’s out in the middle of nowhere, where I have no connection, am I going to be able to bring out an audience? Is this film really for that audience, or is it just for the programmers? Is it even the right demographic?

It just started making no sense to me. I thought, “This is such an archaic model.” Maybe it worked back in the day, but it doesn’t work now. It definitely doesn’t work for somebody who’s trying to build audiences in different cities and do a specific rollout.

When you have limited marketing dollars, you have to be smart about how you spend them. I wasn’t going to wait months between festival screenings just to generate a little buzz. We needed to do everything in one fell swoop if we wanted to make the most of our time and effort.

It’s crazy to me. When I was making shorts, the festival model made a lot of sense because any press is good press. You don’t have the money to market a short, so you just throw it out there and see what happens.

But with a feature, you actually have a chance to make some money and reach a much wider audience. You have to be a lot smarter about the marketing.

Aaron: Yeah, exactly. So once you made that decision, once you heard that call, how did you actually put the plan into action?

Adam: I researched as much as I could. I wanted to understand the difference between four-walling and actually getting programmed by theaters.

I talked to booking agents. I talked to theaters. I talked to producers. I just wanted to learn everything I could.

What I realized after reaching out to theaters in cities where I thought we could actually sell tickets was that it’s kind of like film festivals. People aren’t necessarily going to program your film because they may not believe in the movie. They may not believe you have enough pull in that market. Whatever the reason is, they’re taking a risk too.

So I got to the point where I thought, “Making this film was already a huge bet. Why don’t we just double down?”

That’s what led me to four-wall theaters across the U.S. in markets where I thought we’d do well. It’s not the right choice for everybody, but it felt like the right choice for us. We’ll see if it works out.

Aaron: Well, I’m excited to dive into this because I went kind of semi-viral a couple weeks ago with my anti-four-walling Substack, and I just published a follow-up after some theater owners reached out and opened up a dialogue about the places where they thought I was painting with too broad a brush.

It was really eye-opening and helpful to hear their perspective on why theaters choose to four-wall instead of ticket splitting. Mostly, it comes down to butts in seats and whether independent filmmakers can reliably market enough people into the theater.

Talk a little bit about why four-walling felt like the right strategy for Urchins.

Adam: I think four-walling gave us certainty. It gave us definitive dates and moments that we could actually build a marketing campaign around.

There were specific neighborhoods I wanted to play in, specific theaters I thought fit the movie, and venues where I wanted a larger seating capacity instead of having to schedule multiple screenings. All of those factors made me realize that you kind of have to pay a premium to lock those things in early enough to build a real marketing run.

That’s also where my biggest issue with four-walling comes in, and I think it’s something every indie filmmaker runs into. The rental prices can feel like they’re taking advantage of independent filmmakers.

You start doing the math and think, “Even on a sold-out Friday, you’re not making this much money off what you’re charging me for a rental. So why are you charging this?” That’s really my biggest issue with four-walling.

Aaron: Yeah, that was really the core of my original article. It wasn’t that the practice of theater rentals is inherently evil. I actually think it makes sense. I’d love to see a more cooperative model, but I understand why the financial pressures on some theaters mean it can’t always work that way.

My biggest gripe was the pricing.

Have you basically just had to swallow that pill and commit to it because, on the other side, you get the certainty of having a coherent run of dates that lets you mount a nationwide marketing campaign?

Adam: Yeah, especially in the big markets like New York and L.A. I think they’ve dealt with this before, and they’ve probably dealt with wealthier projects, whether that’s because the filmmaker has more money or the project itself is operating on a bigger scale.

So yeah, that was kind of a pill to swallow in some of the bigger markets. But in the smaller towns and mid-sized cities, I found theaters to be a little easier to work with.

At times they can be a little non-responsive, or they can be a little doom and gloom. I’ve literally had theater owners on the phone after we’ve already agreed to a screening saying, “You know, it’s hard to sell tickets. You’re not going to sell tickets.” And I’m just sitting there like, “Okay... thanks.”

Aaron: Yeah, I’m glad we’re all optimistic about the future of independent cinema.

Adam: You run into a lot of that. But you have to be willing to have a lot of different conversations.

Then there are people who are the complete opposite. I reached out to a theater in Dallas this weekend, and they were so nice. The owner was basically like, “I’m in. Let me know your budget.”

No theater had ever said that to me before.

I’ve had to haggle with theaters. I’ve had to turn theaters down. I’ve had to accept rates that were way too high because I felt like it was the right choice for that particular date.

So I think it just depends. Most of these are independently owned cinemas, so you’re really just dealing owner to owner.

Aaron: Yeah, that’s interesting. I actually took the opposite approach. I organized my tour around a strict no four-wall policy because, mentally, I didn’t even want to give myself the option.

I knew I’d eventually talk myself into paying a four-wall fee if I left that door open because it definitely alleviates some stress.

Adam: Oh yeah.

Aaron: But you’re paying the sticker price for that stress.

Adam: Yeah, for sure.

Aaron: Because certainty is really nice. Waiting on people to get back to you and sitting with all that uncertainty is really difficult. That’s been one of the biggest challenges I’ve had to work through over the last month and a half.

I went with the no four-wall strategy, and it’s panned out in the sense that I’ve gotten some great venues and some great dates. But when you’re relying on theaters to program you, you’re usually taking whatever nights are available. I’m doing a lot of Tuesdays and Wednesdays, and it’s hard to line up calendars that work for both the theater and me.

It’s turned the tour into a much longer process where I’m basically doing three or four screenings a month over the course of several months.

Honestly, because I’ve got two kids at home and I can’t disappear onto the road for weeks at a time, that actually worked out pretty well for me. I’m basically traveling for twenty-four hours for each screening.

But the biggest stress has been the uncertainty and the lack of responsiveness.

So I think there’s real value in what you’re saying. Especially if you’re willing to accept that you might lose money, that’s the commitment you’re making.

Adam: Certainly. If you’re committed to losing some money, you just have to accept it.

But here’s the other side of it. It’s that kind of bet where there can be exponential upside.

The truth is, if we sell out some of these venues, it probably won’t end up as profit because we’ll reinvest the money into marketing the film. But we’d still make a lot more than we ever would on a ticket split.

Aaron: Sure. There’s definitely a high-risk, high-reward factor there.

How are you approaching your marketing strategy? Now that you’ve got this challenge in front of you of putting butts in seats, what does that actually look like?

Adam: It’s basically become a full-time job creating content.

We’re posting every single day, studying current trends, looking back at past trends, and seeing what’s worked for other people so we can figure out what might work for us.

We’re running Instagram ads, which have actually been performing pretty well for ticket sales. We’re also diving into influencer marketing. I brought on an associate producer who’s been helping me a lot with that side of things.

We’re also designing event-driven moments around the premieres.

That’s kind of the frustrating part of all this. A lot of the marketing can’t really happen until you have that first big premiere. That’s the moment.

As of today, we’re about a month away from our first screening, and there’s only so much you can do digitally. Eventually you have to get in front of people. You have to show the film. You have to engage with audiences. That’s where the rest of the marketing really begins.

So hopefully we’ll get a much bigger pop once we start screening the film.

Until then, it’s just plugging away every day and making sure we’re putting out content that drives people toward the movie and builds interest.

Aaron: Yeah, that’s interesting. So when you talk about moment-focused marketing, are you talking about things that happen in person at the theater, like engaging with audiences? Or are you planning bigger moments at the premieres? I don’t know... stunts?

Adam: I wouldn’t call them stunts. We’re not pranking anybody or anything. But we are trying to create events around some of these screenings.

I don’t know if I want to say too much about exactly what we’re doing, but for the first few people at the first few premieres, we’re giving away something that we’re really excited about. It’s super unique, and I think it’ll really stand out.

When people talk about Hundreds of Beavers and its marketing, they always talk about the events and the moments they created around the screenings. I’m hoping we can create things like that that feel organic. They’re not out of left field. They’re just fun, and they become part of the moviegoing experience.

Aaron: You heard it here first. If you go see Urchins on tour and you’re one of the first people in the theater, you’re getting a free car. So show up early to Urchins for your chance to win a free car.

Adam: Dude, I’ve thought about giving away the car. I’m not kidding. It doesn’t work that well, though. At that point it’s less of a gift and more of a problem.

Aaron: Yeah, exactly.

When you’re thinking about the tour, how do you balance big markets versus small markets?

I’ll say that when I started this, my vision was very much a small-market campaign. I thought those were the underserved places where you could come in and be the only show in town.

But what I’ve found in practice is that it’s actually harder to get people out to a theater in a small market for something they’ve never heard of before, especially if it wasn’t made by someone from that community.

In bigger markets, people seem much more willing to take a chance on something new.

So I’m constantly going back and forth on whether the future of independent cinema really exists in the big markets or the small markets. What do you think?

Adam: I’ve never really operated in the small-market world, so it’s hard for me to speak to it with much authority.

What I can say about big markets is that people are really receptive to events.

I think that’s one of the biggest differences between a big city and a small town. In a big city, people are always looking for what’s happening, what’s new, what’s different, what’s interesting.

In smaller towns, it’s much more about community.

So if you can really ingratiate yourself into that community and become part of it, I can absolutely see big things happening. But if you’re just coming in as an outsider, I don’t know how much that benefits you.

That’s why we started with the big markets. Partly because we already had some connections there, but also because I felt like that’s where people are actively looking for something new and exciting.

Then you move into the smaller markets that really make sense.

For us, all of Florida is a huge market. This is a Florida film, and I think just about any town in Florida has a reason to come out and see it.

Aaron: Hell yeah.

I’m going to start wrapping up here. I just want to ask a few broader questions.

I’m on the Ted Hope train that the phrase “independent film” has kind of lost all meaning.

So what is the thing about DIY, non-dependent filmmaking that frustrates you the most?

Adam: It’s really easy now to emulate the look and sound of Hollywood. You can get really close to making something that feels like a studio film.

What’s difficult is making that film the best possible version of itself within your budget.

I think it’s really easy for someone to watch an independent or non-dependent film and say, “It looked great, but the story just wasn’t that good.”

What people don’t always understand is how hard it is to make every piece of a movie work when you’re operating on a limited budget.

If people really understood what fifty thousand dollars, a hundred thousand dollars, or even five hundred thousand dollars means in filmmaking compared to the ten-, fifty-, one hundred-, or four-hundred-million-dollar movies they’re used to watching, I think they’d have a lot more grace for independent filmmakers.

They’d understand that we’re genuinely trying to make the best, most entertaining thing we possibly can while fighting so many uphill battles.

Aaron: Is there something about self-distribution that you wish more people understood?

Adam: There is no finding the next Spielberg or Greta Gerwig without supporting truly independent artists.

The system that helped cultivate directors like that has died.

There’s a new system now, and it’s built around filmmakers connecting directly with audiences online, and those audiences showing up to support them.

If you want to see the next generation of great filmmakers, you have to go out and support young filmmakers as they’re coming into their own.

Aaron: Nice.

Last but not least, when you look at the landscape of independent art cinema, what gives you hope?

Adam: The shift. I think everything moving online has actually created a huge opportunity.

I kind of love that old Hollywood doesn’t really know what it’s doing anymore, and that there’s more transparency around the struggles they’re having.

It’s giving all of us an opportunity to say, “Actually, we’ve got some things that are working. Let’s see where this goes.”

I also think there’s a massive shift happening with Gen Z coming back into movie theaters.

That’s a real glimmer of hope.

We’re back.

Aaron: Hell yeah.

Adam, real quick, tell people where they can find out more about the film and where they can catch the tour.

Adam: You can go to urchinsfilm.com or find us on Instagram @urchinsfilm.

You’ll find all of our dates there. We’ve got Los Angeles, New York, Chicago, St. Petersburg, Fort Lauderdale, Atlanta, and a couple more cities that we can’t announce just yet.

You’ll find all the screening information and ticket links there.

Aaron: Hell yeah. Thanks so much for joining me.

Adam: Yeah, dude. This was fun.