Today’s episode kicks off a full month dedicated to psychedelic-informed wisdom for people over 50, delivered by psychedelic-informed people over 50, with a real focus on what women specifically are navigating in their later decades. This is a live recording of Psychedelic Salon, the monthly series I host, and features Sand Symes, a psychedelic guide and integration therapist who has spent 45 years supporting women. First as a social worker. Then as what she calls a modern medicine woman.
Sand doesn’t come to this work from clinical research. She comes to it from decades sitting with women in ceremony, and from her own reckoning with trauma she didn’t name publicly until she was 42.
In this episode, Sand discuses ancestral wisdom, Internal Family Systems, the trauma of the over-producer, and the real work of psychedelic integration. The unglamorous work that happens in the weeks and months after a journey, when you’re back in your regular life trying to hold onto what you remembered without a ceremony room to hold you up.
I also can’t stop thinking about the trauma of overdoing. A nervous system that learned stillness wasn’t safe takes times to not feel suffocated by space and silence. Unlearning this takes longer than any single medicine ceremony can offer. None of this is a quick fix, and Sand offers a framework for curious exploration of our Self.
Since 2021, I’ve been explaining what integration is and why it’s important, but what I’ve learned is without a supportive community, the gravitational pull of life can disrupt “the work” that is both inconvenient and lackluster, for years. Ask for help because - for many of us - that is the work.
Take care,
April
🔵 Episode Summary
Most conversations about psychedelics stay at the level of the ceremony: the dose, the visions, the breakthrough. This episode goes somewhere else. Sand Symes has spent 45 years supporting women, first as a social worker, then as what she calls a modern medicine woman, and she doesn’t talk about psychedelics as a fix. She talks about them as a way back to parts of yourself that got buried decades ago and never fully addressed. In this live recording from Psychedelic Salon at Town Hall Seattle, Sand walks through Internal Family Systems, the neuroscience of fear memory, the “trauma of overdoing” that hides inside high-functioning women, and why psychedelic integration for women is the part almost everyone underestimates. If you’ve ever wondered what actually happens after the journey ends, this is that conversation.
🔵 What You’ll Learn in This Episode
How Internal Family Systems explains the “parts” that surface during a psychedelic journey
Why the amygdala’s role in fear memory matters for understanding integration • What the “trauma of overdoing” looks like in high-functioning women, and why it’s often missed
What current research does and doesn’t show about the post-psychedelic neuroplasticity window
Where the science on menstrual cycle timing and psychedelics actually stands
Why community and ancestral context matter more for women’s integration work
What three decades of guiding others through ceremony has taught Sand Symes about readiness
🔵 Key Takeaways
Internal Family Systems (IFS), developed by therapist Richard Schwartz, treats the mind as made up of protector parts, exiled parts carrying old pain, and a calm core self underneath. It’s a mainstream therapy model, not something invented by the psychedelic space, though psychedelics often make those parts easier to access directly.
The amygdala stores fear memory and drives the fight, flight, or freeze response before conscious thought catches up. Sand’s description of medicine “lulling it to sleep” tracks with established neuroscience on how old memories can be revisited without the same emotional charge.
The “trauma of overdoing” doesn’t look like trauma. It looks like competence: the woman managing her career, her household, her aging parents, and everyone else’s emotional temperature, who gets praised the entire way for never stopping.
Integration, not the ceremony itself, is where the actual change takes root. Early research on post-psychedelic neuroplasticity is strongest in animal studies so far, but the pattern across integration therapists is consistent: the days and weeks after a journey are when new behavior is easiest to install.
Community and ancestral wisdom show up as recurring threads for women in this work, both as ways of processing suppression carried across generations and as safeguards against re-entering ceremony without adequate support afterward.
🔵 Featured Guest
Sand Symes is a psychedelic guide and integration therapist who has spent 45 years supporting women, first as a social worker and now as what she calls a modern medicine woman. She has sat in over 150 ceremonies, assisted in 70, and facilitated more than 60, working primarily with psilocybin and her own ancestral Celtic lineage rather than ayahuasca, MDMA, or LSD.
Follow Sand Symes: website | Instagram
🔵 Episode FAQs
What is Internal Family Systems (IFS) and how does it relate to psychedelics? IFS is a therapy model developed by Richard Schwartz in the 1980s that treats the mind as made up of multiple parts, including protector parts and exiled parts carrying old pain, alongside a calm core Self. It’s a mainstream clinical model on its own. Psychedelics appear to make those parts easier to access and communicate with directly, which is why IFS shows up so often in psychedelic integration work.
What does psychedelic integration actually involve? Integration is the process of applying what surfaces during a psychedelic journey to daily life afterward. It includes resources like breathwork, journaling, guided visualization, and regular check-ins with a guide or therapist, typically over a window of three to six months or longer depending on the depth of trauma involved. Most guides consider it more important than the ceremony itself.
What is the “trauma of overdoing?” It’s a pattern where a person, often a high-functioning woman, cannot stop moving, producing, or achieving because slowing down would mean facing something she’s been avoiding. It’s increasingly recognized as a trauma response rather than a personality trait or a success story.
Is there research on psychedelics and the menstrual cycle? Early research suggests hormonal fluctuation across the menstrual cycle affects serotonin sensitivity, which theoretically could change how a psychedelic experience lands. Some practitioners point to the ovulatory phase as more stable, others to the luteal phase. Controlled human studies mapping this precisely don’t yet exist, so any strong claim about ideal timing is ahead of the current data.
Why does psychedelic integration for women get overlooked? Women are more likely to carry generational suppression, caregiving load, and the “overdoing” trauma pattern into a journey, which means the after-work often requires more sustained support than a standard two-session integration model provides. Guides like Sand Symes argue that community, ancestral context, and ongoing check-ins matter more for women navigating this than the ceremony itself.
🔵 Additional Resources
Ask April: How Do I Find a Psychedelic Guide? — column on legal access, licensed facilitators, and the Oregon versus Colorado distinction
Women in the Wild | small in-person gatherings in Seattle on September 12th, October 3rd, and November 7th
🔵 Timestamps
[00:00] Disclaimer and welcome back to the show [01:00] Why this episode kicks off a month of psychedelic-informed wisdom for people over 50 [04:00] Why the clinical science on women and psychedelics still falls short [05:00] Sand Symes takes the stage: coming out of the underground after decades [08:00] The amygdala, fear memory, and what medicine work can access [10:00] Sand's first ayahuasca journey and the start of her ancestral work [13:00] Why suppression lives differently in women's bodies [18:00] Internal Family Systems: parts, protectors, and unburdening [19:00] Three case studies: religious trauma, a two-year-old self, and a six-year-old hidden in a corner [24:00] The trauma of overdoing: competence as a cover for a nervous system that can't stop [27:00] Audience Q&A begins [29:00] What integration actually requires, and why two sessions is rarely enough [33:00] The neuroplasticity window after a journey, and what the research does and doesn't show yet [38:00] Psychedelic capitalism: is there a way to do this work right at scale [47:00] Cultural respect, finding the right teacher, and misappropriation [50:00] Three ways to prepare for ceremony and three resources for becoming a guide [53:00] Cycle timing, hormones, and where the science actually stands [55:00] Closing thoughts on integration, overdoing, and Women in the Wild
🔵 Transcript
2025.04.07 - Psychedelic Salon ft Sand Symes MP3 audio
April Pride, host: [00:00:00] Hey, this is April, and this show, discusses psychedelics. It’s intended for audiences 21 and over. Also, I am not a medical expert. If you are looking to engage with psychedelic substances, please consult your physician before doing so.
Welcome to Psychedelic Salon
April Pride, host: Welcome back to the show. This is your host, April Pride. For those of you who’ve been with me for a while, you’ve watched me build and rebuild more than one brand. That’s part of how my mind works. I was diagnosed with ADHD later in life, and one thing that comes with it is momentum, new ideas that need a name and a shape almost as quickly as they arrive.
This spring, after years of building brands, I got hit with a cease and desist over the name of my most recent brand, SetSet. My lawyer thought we could win, but winning would’ve cost more than the brand was worth. I made a decision that turned out to be the right one. I stopped building around a product name and started, just being me, [00:01:00] talking about the stuff I wanna talk about related to women in midlife who are figuring a lot out for the first time and are open to psychedelics to support that journey.
This episode kicks off a full month dedicated to psychedelic-informed wisdom for people over 50, delivered by psychedelic-informed people over 50. With a real focus on what women specifically are navigating in their later decades. Today’s episode is part of that work. This is a live recording of Psychedelic Salon, a monthly series I host featuring Sand Symes, a psychedelic guide and integration therapist who has spent 45 years supporting women, first as a social worker, then as what she calls a modern medicine woman.
Sand doesn’t come to this from clinical research. She comes to it from decades sitting with women in ceremony, and from her own reckoning with trauma she didn’t name publicly until she was 42. Tonight, she’s talking about ancestral wisdom, [00:02:00] internal family systems, the trauma of the over-producer, and what integration actually requires.
Be sure to check the show notes for links to Town Hall Seattle, which is going to go live with Psychedelic Salon season’s tickets this week.
Here’s my conversation with Sand Symes, recorded live at Town Hall, Seattle
Hi, good evening. It’s nice to see everyone. I’m April Pride. I’m delighted to welcome you tonight to Psychedelic Salon.
Why Science Falls Short
April Pride, host: when I first conceived of this event, the intention was to explore this intriguing intersection of psychedelics, female hormones, and women’s overall wellbeing with the goal as always, of looking at evidence-based.
Inquiry. looking at the answers that we might be able to find through science of how women are using psychedelics to improve their lives, what I found was [00:03:00] pretty thin. I started, looking at the current scientific literature and consulting with experts like Dr.
Darcy Constance, who was here with us last month talking about depression. And what I found was crucial in that the headlines that we all are reading surrounding women in psychedelics or women’s health in psychedelics are really not supported by the rigorous clinical. Research that we need to be able to make definitive decisions and to use that information to inform clinical practice.
So even providers are really left trying to figure this out. yet with the absence of concrete science, I don’t wanna diminish the potential that these substances do hold for women and where the science falls short.
There’s the space for faith [00:04:00] and for lived wisdom, knowledge that’s gained through guided practice and Experience. So that’s a little bit of context in terms of why tonight’s programming has changed and why I invited Sand Symes to join us. Sand, as introduced, has been working as a psychedelic guide for decades and supporting women in their experiences.
Her wisdom comes not through theory or clinical research, but through deeply personal, spiritual and embodied experiences. And her insight illuminates these pathways of healing, sovereignty, and empowerment that the science just really struggles to present to us. I am really happy to have you here.
Thank you so much for coming to Seattle. Thank you.
Funding Women’s Research
Sand Takes the Stage
Sand Symes: I want you to know that women, men, they like [00:05:00] me, that have been in the underground for so long, coming out is scary as fuck, right?
It really is because you’re always checking who’s listening, who’s open, who’s curious, who’s willing, who’s gonna ask the question That’s going to. Make me dry in the mouth.
Beyond Science Sacred Truths
Sand Symes: So beyond the science, what are the sacred truths that I’ve picked up for women?
45 years now in so many different places in women’s prisons, in substance misuse centers as a social worker, had lots of different experiences supporting community who am I I’m a mom, I’m a grandmother, I’m a sister, and I’m a daughter.
And then I’m a shamanic practitioner. I am not a shaman. Big difference in that. I’m a modern medicine woman that came to psychedelic medicines and sacred medicines over 25 years ago. And through sitting with beautiful dear teachers and mentors over all the years, it [00:06:00] took me 13, 15 years to claim the words modern medicine woman.
I’m very reverent of the medicines and the teachers on this planet. as a shamanic practitioner, in essence, it just means that I’m a deep knowing inside of me that we really aren’t separate on this planet and yet we live our lives most of the time in separation.
Separation from myself, separation from this beautiful earth and separation from each other. I’m a psychedelic integration therapist because I was once a social worker.
I’ve sat in over 150 ceremonies, assisted in 70 and facilitated over 60. And it’s not a numbers game, it’s a learning game. Every time I sit with medicine, she’s my most profound teacher. and I sat with her right from the very beginning because I was drawn to her to deal with my own trauma as a social worker.
My trauma got buried in the incredible trauma that I was dealing with every day as a social worker. So I denied my own trauma and my own physical abuse as a [00:07:00] child. With all the training that I’d had in trauma. I was 42 before I used the a word publicly and said I was abused as a child.
. It’s very deep. Our layers.
Honoring Indigenous Elders
Healing Trauma With Medicine
Sand Symes: I came to the medicines because I knew I carried abuse in my body.
I’d been in and outta therapy for about 10 years and the therapy was brilliant and I’m not denying therapy at all. I still go back to therapy. I’ve got an incredible therapist, but the therapy didn’t seem to be getting to the place that I needed to go to, which was in my body. So the talk therapy helped and it gave me frameworks and I was able to go back into time through EMDR and doing different exercises with my therapist, but I couldn’t break the patterns that I was still carrying and I couldn’t break them because I knew somehow and especially when I started to train in breath work and I knew, Basel Van [00:08:00] Kolk, the Body Keeps the score. When he talked about it in terms of the tissues and the lymphatic and the nervous system, I needed another framework. And I’ll introduce you to the next framework shortly, which was IFS.
So with Basel’s work, the body keeps a score and internal family systems and these sacred medicines. That’s when I really started to find the parts of me to go back without the amygdala being fired up. The amygdala, holds all of our memory of fear. So with the beautiful sacred medicines can wrap around the amygdala, I call it chicken soup for the soul.
April Pride, host: When Sand talks about the amygdala being lulled to sleep, she’s onto something. The amygdala is the part of the brain that stores fear memory and triggers the fight, flight, or freeze response before the thinking part of your brain even catches up.
That’s established neuroscience. What’s less settled is how psychedelics [00:09:00] interact with that system to make old memories feel accessible without the same charge. Researchers are still mapping the exact mechanism. What clinicians and guides like San describe consistently is a window where a person can revisit a memory and stay present instead of getting flooded by it.
Whether that’s a medicine quieting the amygdala directly or something more complex is how fear and memory get reconsolidated. in how fear and memory get reconsolidated is still being studied. Either way, the felt experience Sand is describing, getting past the guard dog to reach the memory itself, tracks with what trauma researchers have documented for decades
Sand Symes: And they can put her to sleep long enough so I could creep past her, get to the place in my childhood where I’d got calcified parts of deep rooted trauma. And it was those parts that the 2-year-old, the 13 month old, the [00:10:00] 5-year-old, I could get to those parts and pull those parts out with conversation whilst I was in the medicine.
And that was a game changer. And that started happening for me about 25 years ago.
Ayahuasca Ancestors Integration
Sand Symes: So when I had my first, medicine journey when I sat with Ayahuasca for the first time, two things happened for me. The first one, the medicine, the mother said, if you wanna know your trauma, then you have to understand where it comes from.
And so that journey was a most powerful journey where she took me not just to my trauma, but to my father’s trauma, my mother’s trauma, my sister’s trauma, my brother’s trauma, grandmother, grandfather, great-grandmother, great-grandfather. And it went on. Then it split into another lifetime.
And I started to see the trauma from that lifetime. Then it split again, and I found trauma from a different lifetime. Is that possible when you’re in the medicine? And I started to then apply the medicine’s wisdom in my life.
I realized that was truth. [00:11:00] What also happened in that Ayahuasca experience was in that ceremony, 45 of us were talking about really profound trauma. In the body, in the mind, our physical, mental, emotional systems. And then after being wide open, split shattered, we all walk back on the streets and had no further support.
The Majesty is in the integration, the medicine just helps us remember who we really are.
The integration is the applied wisdom of that in our life.
She took me to my ancestors. And awakened a gift that I’d had since I was a little girl, which is a gift that is known as a seer. And so I could see patterns and shapes and everything looked more colorful than the 3D reality and experience at seven years old where that gift was shut down because I was in danger.
The people around me in my life didn’t understand that gift. So in order to safeguard further abuse in my life, the spirit. And the ancestors said, okay, now’s not [00:12:00] the time. Let’s come back to her when she’s 31. And it did with a vengeance. So in my ancestral wisdom, it really is a centerpiece what I do with my work.
And the very first time I sat with Ayahuasca and she invited me to be with my own ancestors in many different lifetimes, and then gifted me what she called an ancestral altar, which really meant being with these beings that visit me all the time. They have been the most profound guides in my life.
Women Suppression and Voice
Sand Symes: So why ancestors important and why for women is it more important? When, as women we know we carry stories, we carry narratives.
We can’t speak up, we can’t show up. And so we have suppression in our bodies that our brothers don’t carry in the same way. I’m not saying my brothers on the earth don’t have suppression in your system. You absolutely do. [00:13:00] But women, we’ve been carrying suppression longer in our system and we’ve only just started to get a seat at the table.
And when women get a seat at the table, just as I’m standing in front of you tonight, it takes so long for us to find the fluid wisdom inside of our womb space, our sacred waters, from the womb all the way up to our larynx and speak in. So when you say to a woman, what is it you want?
Her journey of finding what it is she wants is thousands and thousands of years. She’s telling you she’s gotta get through thousands and thousands of years because nobody asks her that question. And when you do ask her what she wants, then she’s gotta find a response to that. Not only do I not know what I want, I don’t know how to articulate it, I don’t know where my needs are because she’s gotta get past these calcified parts that are inside of her.
The younger versions of her 2-year-old. [00:14:00] Her 3-year-old, that little 5-year-old girl that’s calcified inside of her system and whether it’s from abuse or being shut down or running home one day with a painting from school, mom was too busy to look at it. And boom, there’s the shutdown. And that five yearold little girl, as we know, internalized that internalized shame. One of the other places that I get a lot of my beautiful information from is through this incredible framework, internal Family Systems a beautiful way of not getting buried in our stories of shame or our stories of guilt, one of the most profound frameworks of being able to allow people to find these calcified parts of us that have been buried somewhere in the past
It’s called Unburden Them. And in the case studies that I’m gonna share with you shortly, you’re gonna find some of the parts and how they bury themselves and how we actually unburden them in this work. One of the ways that I really want you to [00:15:00] see ourselves and the sun medicines and moon medicines came in a very profound huachuma ceremony that I had in Ecuador about 15 years ago.
Huachuma is, San Pedro is cactus. And this beautiful teaching came through from the medicine when I wanted to know about my righteous anger about my trauma and the medicine said, very simply said, in order to, for you to know yourself, just like you would never know, the moon without the sun.
Same. So you have sun medicines I call them our Facebook medicines, Instagram medicines. There are medicines that we want everybody to know. It’s our kindness and joy and all the things, and they’re true. they exist. You have those medicines inside of you.
But if you really want to know who we are, and especially through sacred medicine work, then there is an opportunity to come again to the edge and find out where some of our moon medicines lie, that [00:16:00] lie in the shadow, that we don’t want Instagram or Facebook to find out about us. It’s the rage, it’s the guilt, it’s the shame, it’s the envy, it’s the frustration, it’s the disappointment.
It’s all those places that we have really worked. Fucking hard to hide, so they get buried inside and these parts that hold these moon medicines are waiting for us. Should you choose to come into medicine work, and I’m sure, I bet there’s about 80% of this audience. You’re already doing medicine work.
But this was a beautiful teaching, and in order for me to know myself, I had to go many times into the medicine to see my own shadow and find out if I’m gonna ever point a finger at somebody else. Then the medicine always brings me back to myself. The lifetimes that I’ve had, where I’ve been, the persecutor and the persecuted, I come outta a medicine journey, and as I said at the beginning, this is an [00:17:00] applied teaching. It’s an applied wisdom. So the medicine day isn’t the wisdom. The medicine day is the remembrance, the wisdom comes in the lived experience and the integration afterwards.
When I used to catch myself wanting to point a finger and judge somebody, it was like, oh, there it is. that one that wants to point a finger because she’s not ready to look at that part of herself, or she sees herself in that other person, but is in denial about seeing it in herself. So the work that can be done through these medicines is not just around finding our places of PTSD and trauma, overwhelming stress and anxiety.
Which it is, but it’s what holds the anxiety and the PTSD, the overwhelm and the trauma who really is holding that in our body. And it isn’t you. It’s a part of you, but it isn’t the whole of you. So some medicines and moon medicines were beautiful teaching that I [00:18:00] got. you’re not broken is one of the biggest, when nobody’s broken.
This sacred work really is everything to me, is about remembering my shadow, remembering my light, remembering the places when somebody once did this to me and got me sitting in a room and gazed in somebody else’s eyes when I was that woman on my own. And I hated that moment and then dropped in and couldn’t stop sobbing because I saw so much beauty and grace in the partner that I’d had the courage to also come to that event by themselves nearly 30 years ago.
We all carry ancestral wisdom.
April Pride, host: Internal family systems, or IFS, is the framework Sand keeps returning to and shows up repeatedly in psychedelic integration work. Developed by therapist Richard Schwartz in the 1980s, IFS treats the mind as made up of multiple parts rather than one fixed self. Protector parts, exiled parts carrying old pain, and what the model calls the self, the calm, curious [00:19:00] core underneath all of it.
It’s a mainstream clinically used therapy model, not something invented by the psychedelic space, though psychedelics seem to make those parts easier to access and speak with directly. When Sand describes a five-year-old part waiting in a corner or a part that wants to point a finger at someone else, that’s IFS language for a part carrying something unresolved.
The goal isn’t to get rid of these parts. It’s to build a relationship with them, which is exactly what Sand means By unburdening
Studies Healing Stories
Sand Symes: So these are some case studies and then we’re gonna go to q and a. And I wanted to end with these case studies because it’s going to hopefully tell you a little bit about how trauma internal family systems body keeps the score. And these beautiful medicines bring out these parts of us in a safe and deeply loving environment.
I chose these three women. these are real, beautiful souls. The first [00:20:00] one met the divine within herself. So this beautiful woman had been, part of religious trauma for 35 years, and when we started to work together, the deep rooted shame in her body, she’d born two beautiful daughters,
And yet she had this deep rooted shame that was stopping her in her business, in her world, in her purpose, in her marriage, in herself. So when she said, in the deep throes of the medicine, I am God. The trauma that started to move through her body was quite exquisite.
And if anybody understands trauma release exercises, when the body starts to move trauma and we start to shake, and then the body goes in a very beautiful way of how the body knows. So it allows us by shaking and the tremors of trauma start to move through the physical body.
And she moved through her traumas for several hours, stopping and starting. [00:21:00] And she realized that the words that she’d spoken, which so many parts of her in her story were blasphemous. How can I ever say I am God? And found the very core of her that she’s the divine and I am God.
Two years later, her sensuality, her sexuality in herself as a mom, as a woman in her marriage, in her business is thriving. And the way that this woman moves now, her hips, she glides through a room instead of being shut down.
And all the somatic body experiences that we have, these shapes and these patterns that had her belief that she wasn’t the divine, and it was through the eyes of the photograph of her daughter, she said, I am the divine.
And she found that deep part of her.
The second one is this beautiful soul that she also had two daughters, and it was the eldest daughter who was five years old, who came to her in the ceremony and sat with her and said, [00:22:00] mom, why are you not letting us see your 2-year-old? Our sister is there, this 2-year-old that had been blocked because of her trauma.
And she said, we just wanna play. Her beautiful daughter sat in front of her 5-year-old pulling out her 2-year-old self and saying, I wanna play, come play.
And that also sent tremors of trauma through her body for quite some time. And now this woman, two and a half years old now, deeply wide tech industry over producing, has found that, in her body, in her life, she’s found this sacred pause and she talks to her 2-year-old every single day.
Last one , this sister had sat with me after eight years of therapy. Couldn’t get to her. Again, super, super clear here, especially to my therapist, sisters and brothers, and they in the room.
Therapy is great. We need it for sure. So thank you. I love you. This sister couldn’t [00:23:00] get to where she needed by the talk therapy and some somatic work she’d done in EMDR. And she also came and she was burnt out, numb, Meeting her 6-year-old self. That again, the trauma one, the 6-year-old self in ceremony hidden.
And the descriptions that these beautiful souls give you, they tell you where they are.
Inner Child Reunion
Sand Symes: They describe the wallpaper on the room from 30 years ago, 40 years ago. They tell you what was on the stove that was cooking ‘cause they can smell it, and they go right back to that place. And she brought this 6-year-old who was waiting for her, hidden in a corner.
And the words that this 6-year-old said was, I’ve waited for 30 years for you. Where have you been? I’m here. I don’t wanna be here anymore. And again, she brought her back.
Breaking the Cycle
Sand Symes: So in that voice, I’m five years on now with this beautiful soul, five years on. She continues to be incredible, loving, strong advocate for women
Trauma of Overdoing - BEGIN EDITING HERE
Sand Symes: [00:24:00] The last piece of trauma I wanna say before we move on is the trauma. It was like the devil was Prada, right? but the devil was Prada is this, the trauma that was mascara. She holds so much till she can’t. And this is a trauma now that’s finally being really seen for what it is.
And it’s the trauma of the over producer. It’s the trauma of the woman that is so successful that she’s got all her shit together. She’s got it all zipped up. She’s super successful. She’s got the husband, the partner, the kids, the goldfish and the mouse, right? So she’s got all of these incredible pieces of her life and nobody would say that she’s got trauma, but it’s the trauma inside of her system that can’t have this woman stopping.
If this woman stopped a part of her, she would believe, would die. I can’t stop because if I stop, I might have to face that part of me that I don’t want to face. So I’ll keep going for the promotion. I’ll keep going for the [00:25:00] productivity. I’ll keep going. I’ll keep going.
I don’t want to come for sacred pause ‘cause I don’t wanna find out what’s inside. But this trauma, this overdoing trauma is there, and we’re gonna find out a lot more about it in the next two or three years. Terry Cole, is a great author and speaker on this subject, The women that really are overproducing, because it is a trauma response, it isn’t about success. So I wanted to end this part of my connection with you, remember, this is not a talk, I hope for you and I, it was a place to remember and I really thank you, as I said, from the bottom of my heart for letting me sit with you and your ancestors and all of your parts tonight.
So thank you so much.
April Pride, host: What Sand just named, I hear a version of it constantly in this community. The trauma of overdoing doesn’t look like trauma. It looks like competence. [00:26:00] It looks like the woman managing her career, her household, her aging parents, and everyone’s emotional temperature at once, and getting praised for it the entire way.
That praise is part of what keeps the pattern locked in place. For a lot of us, especially women raised to locate our value and our usefulness, stopping doesn’t register at rest. It registers at risk. Terry Cole’s work is worth a look if this landed for you.
Terry Cole’s work is worth a look if this landed for you. I’ll say plainly, this isn’t a personality trait or a productivity problem. It’s a nervous system that learned early that stillness wasn’t safe. Recognizing that is different from resolving it, but it’s the first honest look most of us ever take
Q and A Begins
April Pride, host: Thank you sand I, it’s my favorite part of the night. No offense. I love the q and a. I love to know what is, what you’re thinking about, [00:27:00] what stands not talk, remembering has brought up for you. And we do have a mic here. You can also submit your questions on the iPad,
Audience: my name is Murphy.
April Pride, host: Hey Murphy.
Audience: Were you born in Ireland?
Sand Symes: My mommy was born in,
Audience: I see.
Sand Symes: Where are you from
Audience: I’m from Central Illinois.
Sand Symes: Ah, where’s your ancestors from?
Audience: My father’s name was Patrick Murphy. He was born St. Patty’s Day. And he had nine children with. A woman whose parents had come from Italy.
Sand Symes: Oh, look at that.
Audience: Called a Gaelic. And Garlic.
Sand Symes: Gaelic. And garlic.
Audience: And it’s not about mysticism. And it’s not about magic. No, it’s about the soul. And it’s not surprising at all that you have chosen your way of living.
I wanna honor you for that. Thank you very much.
Sand Symes: Can I hug you?
Audience: Pardon?
Sand Symes: Can I hug you?
Audience: That would be wonderful.
Sand Symes: I know there’s q and a and you’re coming. Ask the questions. I have to tell you that you’re gonna [00:28:00] love this. One of my beautiful experiences when I was questioning who I was to do this work and I’ve done so many ceremonies with that. My unworthiness comes up a lot in this medicine work.
and I asked who I was to do this work and the data that came immediately in what this particular ceremony was, the queen of the fairies
April Pride, host: queen.
Sand Symes: And she said in the most Gaelic gorgeous accent, she said, Hey sand, come with me. I’ll show you your land and I’ll show you the shrooms and I’ll show you the leprechauns.
And there is no pot of gold. ‘cause it’s not about finances or money, is it? It’s about love and connection. So she was a really strong medicine for me that day and finally burnt away that I can honestly be here with these medicines. So thank you so much for that. Thank you.
Integration Essentials
Audience: Hi. I’m also from Central Illinois, but I’m wondering if you can speak more about integration and [00:29:00] maybe the key elements of integration or what should be considered and how, if you know when that process of integration is complete.
Sand Symes: I don’t think you ever know. Do you wanna stay the mic in case you have another question?
April Pride, host: can you explain what integration
Sand Symes: Let me explain that, and I don’t know if you ever really can fully land it, because then there’s an ending and it’s never ending.
And I would say for integration, because the neuroplasticity that awakens us in our physiology in a medicine journey, there is a window. some say it’s 90 days, some say it’s a little bit longer. And if we can use that window of opportunity to pivot, I do a teaching around the pivot when the trigger comes in and they will, because this medicine doesn’t take everything away from us.
The medicine actually opens us to remember. So integration is the day. Actually the day of the medicine, you start integrating all of the wisdom that you got. Then you’re integrating the next day for weeks, months, and years, and you can, in my [00:30:00] experience, I’m still integrating 25 years later from some of the most powerful experiences I had 20 years ago that I couldn’t make sense of at the time
Wasn’t aware enough inside of my own body what that teaching was being taught to me by the medicine. But on the whole, in integration, I would say, it really is the most powerful part of a medicine journey. And integration is being resourced with resources. For me, I offer breath work, meditation, guided visualizations, journaling, online materials that I’ve written to support the person coming out of a journey.
You never leave them, you’re always checking in with them. So it’s regular check-ins. it’s reading materials. It’s making sure that they have a place to come back to when they’re having a dream or something happens to them and it’s Sandy, is this the medicine? Have I just made this up? So that they’re always in that inquiry, [00:31:00] constantly in that inquiry and then massive celebration.
if we don’t celebrate every time we pivot away from an old pattern somewhere, if we don’t bring it back, especially as women back to our body and say, oh my God, you did that. There’s your mother on the phone again and she’s gonna trigger the shit outta you.
And it’s here she is and you feel it and we teach this, it’s like you’re gonna feel it. ‘cause those patterns don’t dissolve. The patterns are always there. So when that trigger comes up and the memory comes up to remind you, you have a choice In that moment, and I’m not particularly a religious person, but God, universe, life, she gave us free will.
and I. Talk about this as sometimes you’re gonna feel like your body’s been bitten by a thousand mosquitoes and you want to itch it so bad. ‘cause that old pattern is there and you’re going and you are in it, and you are boiling and the trigger is there. And it’s like in that moment with resources and [00:32:00] somatic practices, put your arms around yourself.
Go get some ice in your hands right now. Pattern break. You have a choice. What are you gonna choose? Remember in the medicine and integration, we work on personal workbooks. Work. integration, pattern and resources work for you. And Let’s keep going with that.
That didn’t work. Let’s try something new. Has that answered your question?
Audience: Yes.
Sand Symes: Do you wanna say something about it yourself?
Audience: I think personally, I feel like there’s a lot of energy put into the ceremony.
My experience has been that I feel like I’ve sucked at the integration part, and that’s the most important piece, I think.
And so I find that with some practitioners, it’s overlooked. And then I feel like I’m not fully getting all of the benefit out of the work if I don’t focus enough on integration. So I was curious to see from your experience, what has worked and been successful and what’s recommended.
Sand Symes: Yeah. I know people might not like this, but I do make myself available 24 7. You can text me at three o’clock in the [00:33:00] morning. I won’t respond at three o’clock in the morning, but those are the times when things happen in the dream space or in the dark nights again, and something will happen.
So I think between three to six months for me, depends on the person for their time allowance as well, but three to six months can really get the stabilizers on and then you can go, it’s like you can go by yourself now unless you are moving through a lot of layers of trauma and then one bicycle journey isn’t enough.
April Pride, host: Yeah.
Audience: Thank you so much for the work that you
Sand Symes: Thank you so much for your question.
April Pride, host: Sand mentioned a window after a journey when change is more possible, and the science is starting to catch up to what guides have observed for decades. Research out of Johns Hopkins and other labs has shown that psychedelics can temporarily reopen what neuroscientists call a critical period, a stretch of heightened neuroplasticity similar to what happens in early childhood development when the brain is unusually open to forming new patterns.
That research [00:34:00] is strongest in animal studies so far. We don’t yet have precise human data on how long the window stays open or maximizes it. What we do have is a consistent pattern across integration therapists. The days and weeks immediately following a journey tend to be when new behavior is easiest to install.
That’s an argument for treating integration as the actual work, not an optional follow-up, which is exactly the point Sand keeps returning to during this 2025 Salon and remains in the zeitgeist today
Finding Support Networks
Affordable Integration Tools
April Pride, host: Hi.
Audience: I’ve had a couple of journeys now it is hard with the integration because I did a psilocybin facilitator training in Oregon and they talk about, two integration sessions, which does not feel like enough.
THS: Yeah.
Audience: what are your thoughts on doing integration either with these tools or with a different integration coach who wasn’t there at the medicine journey?
Sand Symes: I’d say 60% of people that end up [00:35:00] finding me, just my personal experience, have a therapist.
if they do, I like to meet the therapist and we have a three way call. Every therapist has come into that place and they are grateful, they learn, and they give the incredible intel and data about their client with love and permission of course.
We work with the resources that we have around us. So if you’ve got a therapist, we work with the therapist. if it’s the husband, if it’s the wife, it’s your community, find out who the resources are in that person’s life to make sure that they are set up for long lasting sustainable change.
these patterns don’t go away. they’re there. we do work in resources that you can come back to. Community is everything. Community can be family, community can be friends.
but if you can be in community and then you’ve got the people who are. Traveling with you and journeying with you, and even your own peer group in the facilitation. and I agree for the record, I don’t think two integration sessions can do it depending on what [00:36:00] the intention was and the level of trauma or situations and circumstances and challenges that this person is carrying into the medicine.
Then that is, I call it the tail. And it’s like some have a longer tail of integration. Some have a shorter tail of integration, but it depends on what the presenting issues are they’re bringing into the medicine.
Audience: I can ask you it later, but as someone who’s thinking about becoming a practitioner, I hear lots of different opinions on when are you ready to, Do this on your own, which I feel like I would never be ready. You’ve done hundreds of things, so I don’t know if that’s a question for now or later, but thank you.
Sand Symes: Thank you. you can stay there, you can go back to your seat and your medicine that you’re bringing.
What’s your name? Stacy. Stacy. It shows me that your medicine of, humility saying, when am I ever ready? and again, for women in particular, the statistics around this is when a woman sees a, an advert for a job, if we don’t fit 97% of that job, we won’t apply.[00:37:00]
And our brothers on this planet go, eh, 12%. Yeah, man, I can do this. I’m gonna get in a little bit. I don’t think it’s 12%, but it’s not much more than 30%, but I think it’s about 37%. so women tend to be the more reluctant gender coming to the station. And again, our bipoc communities, L-G-T-B-Q communities feel all the time I’m underrepresented here.
And then again, it’s another barrier. Who am I to come to the table? Who am I? And if it is called to you, if this medicine calls to you, then find somebody to believe in you and say, girl, boy, they fucking love you. Just, there’s something that’s moving inside you. So step in there with humility, step in there and be guided.
Find a mentor, find somebody that can work alongside and support you. we don’t come into this work at all in any other way other than like deep humility. I had a Peruvian, medicine woman that I was an apprentice with her for 70 ceremonies for 16 years.[00:38:00]
So I never in a million years thought I would end up doing this work. I was a social worker, I was. holding people and rocking people and crying with people and all the things you are on the earth. You’ve got dirt in your mouth, you’ve got, spit and blood spit tears, beautiful purging happens and you hold somebody in that as they’re going through their incredible journey of releasing something that no longer wants to be in their body.
Psychedelic Capitalism Debate
Audience: Hi Sand. Hi, April. I had a question about how some of this work interfaces with business because a lot of people are being called to the work and have learned more about the potential of psychedelic medicine in the last few years I work with fungi a lot, so this is psilocybin focused, this is so situated and community and place and lived wisdom and ancestral connection and like fungi, mycelium they’re so relational, right?
Like it is such a connecting force everywhere and people are really trying to figure out in biotech pharma, like what to abstract or [00:39:00] what to pull out and create a business model around with varying success, right? Like it’s hard. From your perspective, you’ve been steeped in this healing work for so long.
Do you think there’s a way forward for psychedelic capitalism? Do you see anybody doing it?
Sand Symes: Do I see anybody doing it right? I do. I would say a lot of the people I see doing it would never be on a stage like this anyway. They’re so deeply buried and won’t come out.
I see people doing it right in the rainforest of Ecuador. I see people doing it right in the jungles of Peru. I see the right people doing it in Dublin, and, I see the right people doing it all over the world. And I have to say, obviously it’s for the, we have great teachers as well, and leaders who also took a lot of risk.
And then they’re the big kind of names that are out there, like Rick Dublin. He is been a pioneer in this work, and he’s been held on a pedestal and he’s been completely, shamed as well. I think anybody that puts yourself out there, you’ve gotta be open to everything I honestly believe in, April said the word at the beginning, I didn’t catch your name.
April Pride, host: Her name’s Renee.
Sand Symes: [00:40:00] Renee. My mom’s renie say close the same spelling different ways. we’ve gotta have faith. We can’t do this work and not get touched without having faith.
We see things that just are beyond anything we could ever fathom in our brain, in our 3D reality. And so I have to have faith that these medicines have come to our humanity at this time for bigger reasons than we are really figuring out right now. Is anybody doing it right? I don’t know.
There’s probably more people doing it wrong and fucking up because it’s still new, isn’t it? for so many of us. So we’re all pioneers in this place, I think. So it’s, we’re gonna fuck up more than we’ll get it right? but we are gonna make mistakes, but that’s how we learn. I hope we learn from every shitty mistake that we make. I hope that we put it somewhere into being and into practice, and it’s applied so that the next generations, [00:41:00] we can keep going with this. And it doesn’t get completely shut down when it’s just finding its way again here.
April Pride, host: I would say you could look at the regulated cannabis industry and see that there needs to be reverence for the plant as nature intended. And frankensteining these medicines is not going to work with human bodies long term.
Audience: My question is about a scenario, I’ve been on both sides of, personally you have a journey. Similar to the discussion around integration, you leave that journey and you go back to your normal life and your people, your tribe, and so on, who might not be as invested, experienced, or motivated, around plant medicine.
So you have this feeling, you have these revelations, you have these epiphanies, and you are ready to share with them. but they’re not gonna necessarily buy [00:42:00] in with as much enthusiasm and support. I’ve also been on the other side of this, where someone comes to you and they’re totally lit up and you’re just that’s great.
do you have any guidance on how to help the people who are in your tribe, your circle, meet you where you’re at, and or if you are in a scenario where you are not where they’re at, to then go meet your people?
Sand Symes: And it leads into like integration you said Patrick Again, lovely Irish saying here, you don’t go and give your pearls to swine. meaning whatever the gifts that you are given be really mindful of how you share them because outta context and content, then people really can’t place what you’re talking about.
So we spend a lot of time in that integration, at the end of the medicine and in the first few, sessions in integration. Really helping people understand the language that they might want to use [00:43:00] because of course, it’s like a lot of people want to share with their beloveds immediately that they’ve just seen the holy grail and they’ve just, they’ve had, a 6-year-old or their daughter.
Hey, husband. Our 5-year-old daughter pulled my 2-year-old child out of me, and he has no reference for that. So we have to slow it down. So we work with people, in terms of the language and how to frame that so that it can be understood and it can land. ‘cause the last thing you want is bringing your pearls out and it getting slammed down.
And then the second one, when people come to somebody and you startled, head headlights. And I’ve seen a lot of that. And, I had a part that was a purist part that, if anybody didn’t come to this work that didn’t feel it was reverend, I had a bit of a judgment about that.
So I had do a lot of work, around not having that judgment, but, and I would hear people talking about the medicine in a particular way of what I’d call brawl language.
And it’s wow they’re not in their bodies right now, but yet they’re speaking in that place. [00:44:00] So I had judgment about that, but what I’ve come to understand is. That’s the language for, in that moment that they could speak. ‘cause they couldn’t, they didn’t get, they didn’t have, nobody was helping them to land the language to say it any differently.
So my judgment really was, it was like a biopsy really, of only taking a very small piece of what they were saying. Judging that, not understanding that’s all they had, so there is, I feel that there’s a lot of responsibility on the facilitator to be able to be with that, that this part of the inquiry of how are you going to explain this when you get home?
And in line of that, with the different works that I do, we have a letter for the women that we work with to send to their partner that says, when your wife or partner or friend comes home, these are some of the ways that you can help support her, he or they. [00:45:00] And that letter has got so much beautiful feedback of, I feel that you are taking care of the person that’s come to the ceremony and I feel you’re taking care of me.
And that’s really gone a long way. and we actually only adopted that about two years ago. So then we’ve had profound insight from that.
Audience: I also think that sounds like a great approach as well because I think as someone who is supporting and a partner or relative or whatever of someone who’s had an experience, you’re trying to understand and meet them where they’re at, but also bridge who they were. And that is like a black box. So the way you described the letter is beautiful. Thank you.
April Pride, host: That’s why the science is important.
I was talking to someone last night who’s on the front row and has beautiful medicine that you can learn about at the merch table. And she has a background in transcendental meditation, which I studied about 14 years ago because there were over 600. Studies that showed [00:46:00] that it made an impact on your physical and mental health, a positive impact.
There was no other type of meditation that could offer that type of proof. And so to be able to take proof to someone that you love, that this is good, this will help, is one of the reasons why science is so important for people who don’t quite get it. I’m gonna read a few of these questions I’ve been read.
I’ve been waiting to have a guided experience in Seattle, but I can’t find one. Any insight on approaching this? Someone recommended psychedelic passage. There’s also a website that is broken up by city region and people.
They’re not vetted, but people do post their offering there. I’m also happy to talk to anybody and make recommendations. You can reach out to me afterwards and I’ll let you know, or we can communicate later. what does it mean to be prepared for a medicine ceremony? So it’s a lot there. mindset, get your head right.
If you go into a journey [00:47:00] and you’re not quite feeling like it’s gonna be your best day, you might wanna postpone your journey Might you need to really, may not just be the right time, but there’s a lot of work that goes into that. and then the next question is where resources have been most helpful for you in cultivating your path as a guide?
So I don’t know if we’re gonna be able to get to these questions, but we may be able to answer them on social media later. Would you like to ask your question? Sure.
Cultural Respect and Teachers
Audience: hi, I am Kayla.
And my question is, how did you find the teachers that you found?
In as far as medicine is it appropriate to take certain medicines that are very culturally specific to groups of people, particularly if they are spiritual, religious, and then they are widely desired. It’s not necessarily been really healthy for the earth, for religious and spiritual communities.
So you protect it and how do you feel, the [00:48:00] medicines that you work with, how do you feel like you have reverence for that or how do you choose what feels right and resonant for you and help others discern that as well?
Sand Symes: I don’t work with ayahuasca. I do not work with those medicines at all. I work with the medicines of me and my, remember my fairy guide. Those are my Celtic roots. So I feel very connected in my ancestral lineage, working with psilocybin in that way.
And MDMA and LSD, I don’t work with any of those medicines. But your question points to which is what, Stacey was saying as well, is when are you ready?
So in that makeup, if you’re being called to this work, why and why are you called to this work? And what are the medicines that you feel are calling you? And then to me, do ceremony with those medicines and talk to them all the time. I’m called to you, tell me why you are alive so alive in me.
Tell me why I feel so connected to [00:49:00] you. find me, find the resonant field inside of me, of having something here that I believe that I can, I’m being called to, is it me? Is it my imagination? Is it my ego? Where am I here? and in terms of like misappropriation, cultural misappropriation, I would never touch a medicine that is damaging to the earth or damaging to a group of people ever.
Audience: How did you find your teachers?
Sand Symes: The first teacher I tried to find as I was having these, visitations I went knocking on the Catholic church door as a good Catholic girl would, right?
So I knocked on the door and I went, father O’Reilly, fuck God, for fuck’s sake. I’m getting all these visitations. Five years, every fucking night for five years. And he went, sh. We won’t be telling anybody about that right now, will we say? So he took me for a long walk around the church. but he was brilliant.
And he said, I can’t help you. but I know somebody who can. And so he introduced me to my first teacher who was a druid, and he helped me to find all my Celtic ancestors and find out what [00:50:00] was inside of me there. for many years with that particular teacher, I didn’t know eyes could cry as much as they could cry.
So it was just the most profound connection to be with somebody that could take something inside of me that I haven’t made any sense of whatsoever. Pull it out, color it in technicolor, slow it down, go forward, go backward. Go inside, go outside and take me through my ancestral lineage and my ancestral wisdom with a Celtic ancestors.
It was profound. Yeah, it was really cool.
Preparing for Ceremony
April Pride, host: I know we need to wrap up, but if you wanna give three ways to be prepared for ceremony and three resources that have helped you as a guide.
Sand Symes: Three ways to be prepared. April said the first one, which is, setting, which we know it’s the mindset and then the setting and setting tends to be seen as the environment that you’re sitting in.
And, it’s so much more than that. Find your teachers and the people are gonna sit with [00:51:00] you and ask them questions. How long have you been working with this medicine? How many people have you taken through this medicine?
you want to find the facilitator who has been as close as he, she, they can be to the presenting issue that you are bringing to the table.
And you don’t have to have the trauma or the life experience of the people you are working with, but you wanna have some like really profound tuning, fork of resonance that you understand trauma or you understand creativity in the way that they’re presenting. So do your due diligence. find your facilitators and shop around guys, go to one and then go, okay, that’s the set of questions.
Then go and find somebody else and see whether you, resonate with that teacher, with that facilitator. And if you don’t and it feels something feels off, don’t do it. Really don’t do it. Try not to do it too quickly with friends or spouses or partners.
sometimes it can be [00:52:00] great esp, but if you’re coming into the work at the beginning, just be careful with that one because you are in the medicine and they’re not. That can sometimes be a little bit tricksy. so talk to me if that’s somebody in the audience that want more information on that, come talk to me.
How do you prepare? You can’t fully prepare for your journey. You really can’t because we live in the world of uncertainty and enough variables in medicine work that how much you prepare, you will never fully a hundred percent. Be prepared for your journey and be prepared for that. As much as you possibly can.
Meaning how much can you sit in the uncertainty? but underscoring a plus’s point is please prepare as much as you can with due diligence. The right facilitator, the right time. My sisters, your moon time is massive. So look at your moon time and make sure if we’ve got IUDs and things like that and you go, haven’t got a moon term, haven’t had one for 10 years, then you really need to know about that.
You need to know how you are going to find different places your [00:53:00] body is going to release and where you’re gonna find your sacred waters.
April Pride, host: Your luteal, the luteal phase is the most ideal time if you take large doses of psychedelics. ‘cause your hormones are the most balanced at that time.
Sand Symes: Three resources becoming a guide. Pray, meditate, sit with the medicine in your hand and don’t ingest her, but get to know her and do that over days or weeks or months until you start a communication with her of her wisdom. That really, and if prayer isn’t your language, invocation prayer, be with it.
Find those places inside your body that is saying yes and find those places in your body that’s scared shitless as well. ‘cause they both exist at the same time.
April Pride, host: Sand and I both touched on cycle timing in this recording, and I wanna be straight with you about where the science actually stands. There’s early research suggesting hormonal fluctuation [00:54:00] across the menstrual cycle affects serotonin sensitivity, which theoretically could change how a psychedelic experience lands.
Some practitioners point toward the ovulatory window as more stable. I referenced the luteal phase tonight, and you’ll hear that recommendation elsewhere too.
The honest answer is that we don’t have controlled human studies mapping this precisely yet, and anyone speaking with total certainty about ideal timing is ahead of the data. What we do have is decades of pattern recognition, my own decade of watching this community, and enough anecdotal overlap to take seriously.
If you’re planning a journey, track your own cycle and how you feel across it. That’s data too. It just hasn’t been published yet
Closing Thanks
April Pride, host: Thank you all for coming. Thank you all for staying later. thank you so much. And thank you for your thoughtful questions.
Audience: Wonderful.
Sand Symes: Thank you.
April Pride, host: Thank you
everyone.
What Sand offered tonight isn’t a technique. It’s five decades of pattern recognition condensed into an evening, and I [00:55:00] don’t think that kind of knowing shows up in a lot of places anymore.
The through line for me was integration, not the journey itself, not the peak, not the vision, the unglamorous work that happens in the weeks and months after when you’re back in your regular life trying to hold onto what you remembered without a ceremony room to hold you up. I cannot...
I also can’t stop thinking about the trauma of overdoing. If you’re a woman who prides herself on never dropping the ball, sit with that one for a while. It’s not a flaw. It’s a nervous system that learned stillness wasn’t safe, and unlearning that takes longer than any single medicine ceremony can offer.
None of this is a quick fix, what it is a framework for coming home to parts of yourself that got buried a long time ago with company along the way. That’s the whole point of Women in the Wild, and it’s why I keep building this. Join me September 13th for the next [00:56:00] chapter
That’s the whole point of the community I’m building through Psychedelic Salon and through small gatherings at my home called Women in the Wild
Town Halls, next salon starts October 8th, and tickets are live this week. And the next Women in the Wild gathering here in Seattle is September 12th, also October 3rd and November 11th this fall. You can find me on Substack at aprilpride.substack.com. You can find me on Instagram @aprilpridecreates, and on YouTube at April Pride Creates.
You can check out my website, aprilpride.com. Thank you so much for joining me. If you think the information on this show could help someone else, please forward the episode. Take care
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