Jennie Nash hosts a #amwriting podcast BookLab with guest Kathleen Barber, author of Truth Be Told and newly released Sisterhood Above All (co-written with Amayah Shaienne), and discusses Barber’s range across thrillers and romance, her character-first approach, and how RushTok inspired an authentic sorority-rush thriller featuring Madison, Shay, and Ava as tensions escalate and someone dies. They define RushTok as viral TikTok coverage of University of Alabama sorority recruitment and note its broad international fascination.
In the BookLab, they evaluate three first-page submissions by asking “Would we turn the page?” They praise Heather’s Trust Me for strong voice, vivid Austin setting, and an intriguing problem hook, with minor notes about genre context. They decline Odeon Omega due to unearned logistics and too much dialogue despite an intriguing title/advert. They find Empty Spaces compellingly written but confusing from too many names and unclear stakes, suggesting more interiority and clarity.
Visit Kathleen’s website to find her books and more: https://www.kathleenbarber.com
Jennie: [00:00:00] Hi, I’m Jennie Nash, and you’re listening to the #amwriting podcast, the place where we help writers of all kinds play big in your writing life, love the process, and stick with it long enough to finish what matters most. This is a book lab session where we answer the most important question about your first pages.
Would we pick up the book? Would we turn the page? Today, I have a really special guest with me. I have Kathleen Barber here, who is so many things. She’s the author of Truth Be Told, which was adapted as a series on Apple TV, Follow Me, Both Things Are True, and just brand new, like it came out four days ago, Sisterhood Above All, with, I’m gonna try her name, Amaya Chen?
How do you-
Barbara: Yeah. Uh, um, yeah. That’s, that’s very close. I think it’s Amaya Chen.
Jennie: Okay. Yeah. Uh, so we’re gonna hear about that in a minute. Um, I haven’t, I haven’t cracked it open yet, but I’m so [00:01:00] excited for it. Um, Kathleen’s also an Author Accelerator certified book coach and a former attorney, and she lives in Washington, DC with her family.
So welcome, Kathleen.
Barbara: Thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited to be here.
Jennie: So I watched your unboxing the other day. It was so fun, and I didn’t realize that we had scheduled this right on top of, like the actual- Oh ... launch of your book.
Barbara: No, that, that’s okay. It’s, it’s great. Um, it gives me something to think about that’s not just, like, spiraling.
Like, is anybody gonna read my book? Is anybody gonna like it? Um, so it gives me something else to focus on.
Jennie: Well, it’s so interesting you say that because I think of you as this really seasoned pro and, you know, it’s been really interesting for me to watch your career because you’ve written some really different kinds of books.
You did a ... Well, your first book was obviously a big thriller and a huge success, and at one point, you pivoted to romance, and now you’re doing ... Well, I, I saw that book list [00:02:00] called Sisterhood Above All, a soapy thriller Yes. Yes ... which is such a great description, and you did it with a collaborator. So you just seem interested in story to me.
Barbara: I, I am. Yeah. I’m always very ... I always start a story with the characters. Um, and so then their story kind of spirals out from there. Um, yeah, so I, my last book that came out before this one was, was a rom-com. Um, and I was really nervous when I started writing it. I was like, “How am I going to write this when I’ve been writing suspense and thrillers before?”
And it turns out that, like, at the heart of it, stories are stories, and people are people, and, you know, in a romance, happy things happen. In a thriller, bad things happen, but things still happen.
Jennie: Amazing. So give us the overview of the brand new book, ‘cause it’s, it’s really juicy.
Barbara: Yeah. Yeah, so I’m really excited about it.
Um, Sisterhood Above All is a thriller set during sorority rush, and so it follows three different [00:03:00] women who are involved there. There’s Madison, who is the president of what’s she perceives as to be the coolest sorority on campus, so she’s kind of the gatekeeper, and there’s Shay, who is the president of a rival sorority and trying to shake, shake up the Greek institutions, and then there’s Ava, who is a potential new member.
She’s going through rush. She’s desperate to join Madison’s sorority, um, and she might be a little too desperate. Uh, so you know, it’s a thriller. Bad things happen. Somebody dies, um, you know, and things kind of spiral out, spiral out of control.
Jennie: But tell us about the collaboration, ‘cause it’s- Yeah ... so interesting how that came about and how it went and-
Barbara: Yeah.
You know, it was, it was a lot of fun. Um, I, like many writers, write alone, and I had never really considered collaborating with anybody before, um, but- But when I was kind of talking about this, I, I’d been pitching my agent a sorority themed thriller for a while. [00:04:00] Um, and at one point when, when Rush Talk was getting really big a couple summers ago, she was like, “This is the moment.
This, you should write this book, but I think that in order to make it feel more authentic, we should bring in somebody who’s living this in this moment.” Um, so one of her colleagues found Amaya, who, um, was up until very, very recently an active member of a sorority at the University of Alabama, and brought us together.
And Amaya and I got along right away, and we both had kind of the same vision for what we wanted the book to be, and so collaborating with her was, was a lot of fun in a way that I had been nervous that it wouldn’t be. But it was, it was a really good time, and I’m really, really proud of the book.
Jennie: So for those who don’t know or weren’t following, can you tell us what Rush Talk-
Barbara: Yeah
was
Jennie: or is
Barbara: or- Yeah ... shall be? Yes, yes, yes. So, um, so if you’re gonna join a sorority, um, you go through, you go through recruitment and which is very slangily [00:05:00] called rush. Um, and so on TikTok a few years ago, um, people started sharing about their experiences during sorority rush, but specifically, uh, during sorority rush at the University of Alabama.
Um, and it really took on a life of its own, like people were watching it like it was, you know, a television program. Uh, they made a documentary about it, which, you know, I’ll, I will let you make your own conclusions about the documentary. Um, but people just got really, really into it, and people... And it was kind of appealing to people who had gone through sorority rush at some point, were thinking about going through a sorority rush, or who were just invested in, you know, watching people have these kind of outlandish experiences and, and share them.
So, um, it
Jennie: was a lot of fun. My understanding was that it got very, very popular in other countries?
Barbara: I- it’s definitely... [00:06:00] Yeah. You know, um- So sorority, some, some sororities are international. Not, not all of them are. Um, but by and large, when they say international, they mean that there are chapters in Canada, not that, like, there are chapters in, you know, like Europe or, or other countries.
And so it just, it’s something that is so unique and so, like, uniquely about, like, this type of college experience that I think it’s been really interesting to people in lots of different places.
Jennie: Yeah, yeah. Fascinating. So obviously the book has been out, like, mere hours here. But, um, how does it feel? Are you, are you- It’s exciting
you said you were excited and proud and- So
Barbara: exciting. Yeah. I’m, I’m, I’m really, really proud of the book. I love it. I mean, I know everybody, like, loves their own books, but I do. I truly, like, love this book, and I just really hope that the readers do too.
Jennie: You know, it’s not true that everybody loves their book.
I, I was dying to have somebody on the podcast who will never come on the podcast. But I- Yeah ... I heard a story about somebody who [00:07:00] got a seven-figure deal for a book that they really didn’t actually love, and then- Oh, no ... they, they wrote it. It came out, and then when they had to co- come time to do the publicity, they just dreaded it.
They, it was like a, just they did it for the money. They got the money, and then didn’t, didn’t wanna talk about it, like felt sort of ashamed about it. And I was like, “Oh, please, come talk about that.” But of course they, they won’t. So...
Barbara: That’s wild. Isn’t that wild? That’s wild. Yeah. I just, I just can’t even imagine how that would feel.
Um, I mean...
Jennie: I know. Well, I, uh, the cover of this, um, of this new book, Sisterhood Above All, is- is really cool too. So we will link to it in the show notes, and everyone can go read it and check it out, and, um, Kathleen’s other books, I’ve read them all, and you have such range and, um, like I said, [00:08:00] interesting stories.
So with that, let’s get to our, our Book Lab entries. We just always wanna start by thanking those who submitted. It’s not easy to do this, to put your stuff out there with no context and no ability to talk back or anything and have random s- people on the internet, you know, talk about your stuff. So really appreciate the, the risk-taking of doing that, and we do this in order to help us all get better and, and learn, you know, what works and, and, um, for your own self or your own writing, what, what you want it to be.
So what we’re gonna do, as always, is I’m gonna read the entry, and then we’re gonna ask ourselves, would we turn the page? So, um, the first entry is Fiction and it is, uh, author’s name is [00:09:00] Heather and the name of the work is Trust Me. So here we go
I can’t tell you whether it’s the Johnny Cash mural, clusters of candles nestled into every corner of the long stone bar, or the smoky scent of Palo Santo that tucks Austin into my head the first night. Maybe it’s the unexpected jazz trio on a Tuesday in a town built for blues, country, and rock, or it could be the two cowboys deep in conversation at a table in the back of the bar.
I’ll later, I’ll later learn that making a hot Austin guy a cowboy because of his hat, faded jeans, and scuffed boots is the same as labing- labeling a frat bro in a hoodie and sweats an athlete. It’s just how they dress. I can tell you I like the looks of Austin men a hell of a lot better, especially that wide silver belt buckle that dresses up the whole package in a bow.
It’s going [00:10:00] on nine PM when I arrive at Whistlers in East Austin, and the bartender hands, hands me a peach-colored mezcal craft cocktail. Fresh juice, pungent herbs, and the smoky sister to tequila are the perfect salve after what’s transpired since my flight landed from New York two hours earlier. I follow the snake tattoo on his foreha- forearm as the bartender shakes another cocktail for the couple next to me.
Damn, he’s hot, too. The crowd starts to pick up, and I signal Snake Tattoo for another before I lose his attention for good. The warm agave liquor spreads through my bones, and I start to relax. Maybe this isn’t the disaster I think it is. Maybe I can actually pull it off. I glance around at the mostly twenty and thirty-something crowd angling for spots at the bar.
The women wear short dresses and long hair. The men, well, those jeans are something, along with their finely cut biceps and well-placed tattoos. Can’t help but glance over at those cowboys again and get a warm smile in [00:11:00] return. Easy, girl. Back to business. I have a problem, and this second mezcal is going to help me solve it.
All right. What do you think? What was your first impression?
Barbara: I really enjoyed that. I would definitely turn the page there. I, I feel like there was, like, a really strong sense of, sense of place, and I, in particular, I really enjoyed the, the first line, not only because it gives us that sense of place, but it, because it also then tells us something about the narrator and how she perceives the world around her in that first line.
Jennie: Yeah, and, and there’s a good m- a, a good question at hand here, which is what’s she doing here?
Barbara: Mm-hmm.
Jennie: She’s come from New York. We get that. It’s a little unclear how, how old she is, ‘cause she’s referencing other people’s ages, but not her own, so we, we don’t really know what’s happening or what, what’s, what’s about.
[00:12:00] Um, I mean, I thought the writ-
Barbara: Well, I
Jennie: agree. Yeah. I thought the writing was great. It sort of tripped along-
Barbara: Mm ...
Jennie: um, nicely. I
Barbara: like at the end where... I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to step on you. No,
Jennie: no, go. Yeah. I like at
Barbara: the end, I like at the end where, um, she says she has a problem, and the second mezcal is gonna help her solve it.
I thought that was really interesting, ‘cause I, it piqued my interest, made me wanna know what the problem is, but it’s also kind of funny. Like, the mezcal’s probably not gonna help you solve your problem, but it’s like...
Jennie: Yeah. No, it’s so true. I was longing for a little bit more of a sense of what’s happening here.
I mean, this could be any kind of story at this point. It could be she could be a spy. She could be an assassin. She could be trying to get a guy back. Like, we, there’s really no sense of what the story’s gonna be. I always like that on the first page. What about you?
Barbara: Yeah. I, I agree with you. I, it, it could, it could go in any direction.
I kind of [00:13:00] sense from the tone that it’s, you know, it’s going to be something, uh- Well, I guess I don’t know. You know, honestly. Now, now that I’m looking at it again and thinking about it, um, you’re right, it could be... The, the problem that she has could be a thriller problem, or it could be a romantic problem, since she’s kind of made, made comments about the different men.
I think that was a hint to me that it might be a romantic problem that she’s having, but I actually don’t know.
Jennie: Yeah. The, the- obviously she’s clocking all the hot guys in this bar, which tells us something, either about her or what she’s up to. We don’t know. Um, but yeah, it’s, um, really good detail, like the, you mentioned that first line, and I liked the line about her sh- the self-awareness about, you know, she calls him a cowboy and then she says, you know, sort of like, “Oh, right, that’s not really fair.”
Mm-hmm. “We don’t know.” [00:14:00] You know, that, I thought that was, made me think- Yeah ... this character’s gonna know themselves.
Barbara: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I agree with that. I, I also really enjoyed the kind of specificity that she uses in the descriptions, like when she talks about, you know, the, the cocktail that she’s drinking, and the tattoo on the bartender’s arm.
Like, I just felt like those details really made the story come alive for me. So that, like, even if I didn’t exactly know where we were going, I could, I could picture where we were.
Jennie: Yeah. Yeah. That’s really well said. Well, we like this. I think I would, I would turn the page.
Barbara: I would, I would too, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Jennie: We would turn the page. Um, I mean, the only notes I think for me would be, I mean, it’s always so tricky, because if we were picking this book up, the title, Trust Me, doesn’t really tell us anything, but the cover would.
Outro: Mm-hmm.
Jennie: The vibe of the cover would. We’d have a little more context for where we were and [00:15:00] what this was about, and that would probably help with the issue that, that I have, which is, well, what kind of book is this?
We don’t know. Um, and you know, now that I’m thinking of it, we don’t even know whe- where we are in time. Um, I’m, I’m assuming modern day, but I don’t know why I assumed that. It, maybe it’s not. So maybe just a tiny bit more of a sense of- Uh, context for the reader. Mm-hmm. But that’s my only note. L- do you have any notes?
Barbara: Yeah. You know, I honestly don’t think that I, I have any additional notes. I mean, I, I really enjoyed this selection, and I would definitely keep reading here.
Jennie: Well, Heather, that’s high praise, so
Barbara: Yeah, I, I usually have ideas. I usually have notes but I don’t.
Jennie: Yeah, that’s, uh, that’s g- a good one for us to start with, and very fun, I hope, for you to hear that from Kathleen.
All right, let’s [00:16:00] go to our, our next one. This is fiction. It’s called Odeon Omega, um, and the author is ... Well, the, the, um, it’s coming across as, um, Sound Smith, but who knows what that is? So, um, Odeon Omega, they will know who they are, for sure. All right, here we go. “The grand O-O opening continues all month long at your new entertainment destination, the one and only, first of its kind on this or any other coast, the all-new, all-excitement Odeon Omega.
‘Gah!’ Emmy shrieked from the bathroom. ‘You can turn the TV volume down now, Seth. We’re done.’ Seth was still lying in bed, his naked body mostly covered with Emmy’s cream-colored, satiny soft sheets. He chuckled while reaching for the remote. ‘I wasn’t the one who turned it up.’ ‘I know that. I have to [00:17:00] turn the TV way up like that, though.
It’s the only way to drown out the neighbors. The walls in this place are so damn thin, and they’re always banging on them, disturbing me when I’m trying to have sex.’ ‘Those bastards,’ Seth chuckled. ‘I’m saying, I like ... I’m saying, like, what am I supposed to do? Not fuck? Hey, that is so not an option,’ Seth p- Seth pressed the mute button, then went back to lying on his back, his hands behind his head.
Another noise startled him, this one coming from Emmy’s phone. A toneless version of Girls Just Wanna Have Fun blared from Emmy’s clutch purse. ‘Turn that off, too,’ Emmy shouted from the bathroom. ‘That’s my mother’s ringtone. I don’t feel like talking to her right now.’ Seth rolled over to the nightstand and opened her clutch and found the button to silence Emmy’s phone.
He lingered on the image of Emmy’s mother. ‘Wow, Emmy, you and your mom could pass for sisters, easy.’ ‘Ew, don’t tell me that,’ Emmy said. ‘Tell her that, but not me. Bet you’re already imagining yourself in a threesome with her and me, [00:18:00] aren’t you?’ ‘Huh, what’s that?’ Seth was distracted by Emmy’s driver’s license in the clutch’s interior pocket.
He slid it out of the pocket and read what he assumed was Emmy’s birth name. ‘Myrtle? What? Your re- your real name is Myrtle?’ Emmy stepped out of the bathroom, still naked from their lovemaking, with a sky blue-colored towel clenched between her legs.”
That’s a vibe.
Barbara: It is. It is, yeah. I mean, opening, uh, opening in the aftermath of sex is a, is a bold choice. I’ll be honest, I don’t feel like I have very much context for what’s happening here. Um, it seems like Emmy and Seth don’t know each other very
Jennie: well. I got that sense, too. I got that sense, too, and that the sex that she has this system for turning up the TV has been for other people.
Barbara: Mm-hmm. [00:19:00] Yeah. On, on that note, though, I did kind of have, uh, a fundamental disbelief about the setup that was giving me a stumbling block when I was reading this, just because it didn’t seem to make a lot of sense to me that she would turn up the television to distract herself from the neighbors, when I would think that that would be more distracting or, you know, just use music or...
And I didn’t really understand why she would be explaining it to him after the fact instead of in the moment. Um, that felt like it was perhaps just put there for the reader,
Jennie: so that we could be distracted. Yeah, it was a little explainy, a little... Yeah, like a, um, we use that term info dump, and an info dump doesn’t have to be a whole scene.
It can just be a line like that where I, I didn’t buy it either that she would actually say that to him now. Mm-hmm. If... He probably would’ve said, “Why are you turning the TV on?”
Barbara: Right.
Jennie: Earlier.
Barbara: Yeah. Yeah, [00:20:00] yeah, and it seemed like that would be the conversation that would have before we got to this moment. So that was something that, that I struggled with a bit.
Jennie: I also didn’t believe, it felt like, uh, unearned that he’s pulling this license out of her purse. I could see, I could see that he might have seen something on her phone if he’s turning her phone off. But-
Barbara: Mm-hmm ...
Jennie: to, to actually then see... I kept, like I was trying to think through the logistics. Like, okay, see one of those little slidey things inside a purse, but you can’t see- Mm
the driver’s license. Like, why would he reach in and pull it out? It felt like the author wanted us to get to this moment where- Mm-hmm ... Seth got this information.
Barbara: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jennie: It, yeah, it felt unearned to me.
Barbara: Yeah. I, I agree, especially because it doesn’t seem like Seth knows her very well, obviously. Then for him to be [00:21:00] digging around in her clutch purse felt- Untrue to the situation, um, unless something else was going on that we don’t hear about.
Jennie: Yeah, yeah. Um, this... When I said, like, “Well, this is a vibe,” this character has a, a tone or a style or sense about, like a sort of swagger about- Mm-hmm ... her that interests me. Um, I happen to be in the middle... I’m behind everybody else, but I’m in the middle of reading Yesteryear. Oh. Have you read-
Barbara: Oh. Yes, yes.
Jennie: Don’t tell me what ha- I, I- Don’t tell me ...
Barbara: I w- I won’t. I was also late to it, and everybody was trying to tell me about it, and I was just constantly walking around going, “No spoilers, no spoilers.” Yeah.
Jennie: But the, that character has, has such a brashness- Mm-hmm ... of point of view and opinion in both, um, both parts of the story there, and there’s something about this character that rem- reminds me of that.
[00:22:00] There’s like a, I don’t know, um, a, just a brashness. S- And I, I’ve been enjoying that protagonist- Mm-hmm ... the Yesteryear protagonist, just ‘cause it’s unusual. I’ve read a tiny bit, and I know people are saying, “Oh, she is so unlikable,” but there’s just something of a character that’s so owning their, um-
Barbara: Mm-hmm
Jennie: way, and this woman’s ownership of, of her sexuality, I guess, I, I thought was- Hmm ... interesting.
Barbara: Yeah. No, I, I, I know what you mean, and I, I, I am intrigued by her as a character because, I mean, again, here she, she seems to have kind of an interesting setup in a, an apartment building that has thin walls, um, has this system of turning up her television, um, but not with Seth before.
So, you know, it seems like she’s had several partners back to this, this space. Um, but she seems very, very confident and, like you said, kind of swaggery [00:23:00] with him. Um, so yeah, I, I am intrigued to know more about, like, who she is and what makes her that way. Um...
Jennie: Yeah. Uh, for me, probably not enough to turn the page.
Um-
Barbara: Not for, not for me either. I-
Jennie: Yeah. And, and I have to say that the thing that intrigues me the most about this whole thing is that the title of this book is Odeon Omega, and that’s the random, um- I think that’s the random show on TV
Barbara: Yeah,
Jennie: the- Am I ma- am I
Barbara: making that up? No, no, no, that, that, that’s the first line.
It’s, um, it sounds like it’s maybe like a commercial. I was kind of envisioning it from the way that it was spelled out as, you know, kind of like, uh, oh, the way that like a, a carnival or like a car salesman is like, “The grand o- o- opening.” Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, that’s kind of how I was envisioning it.
Um, so I, I didn’t, I did enjoy s- seeing that right up front, um, [00:24:00] but I wanted more context to understand what it was, because without that, I, I don’t know what that line means. Um-
Jennie: And that just the author’s choice, like, okay, the TV’s on f- for a random reason- Mm-hmm ... or for her systematic sex reason, and, and she’s hearing this show opening, and then that’s the title of the book.
Like, something about this, I, I thought of it as a, yeah, like a carnival or a show or something- Mm-hmm ... a theme park, um, that there’s g- that’s gonna become central to the story. It’s kind of an interesting way of putting that in in, and presumably- Mm ... it will come back, um- Yeah ... in an important way. But I, I was intrigued by that most of all, actually.
Barbara: Yeah. No, same, especially because that’s the moment that Emmy says, “Turn the volume down.” So I was, uh, so it made it seem, to me at least, that there was something about that particular advertisement that she [00:25:00] was reacting to, and I wanted to know what that was.
Jennie: Well, that’s a really great point, and I think if we were to give this writer some guidance- Um, it might be to make more of that.
Mm. If the character reacts more to that. Like, in, you know, that she can’t hear it or that it’s upsets her in a particular way, or she gives us some information or context about that so that we, I don’t know, I guess we need to be more grounded in, in what’s happening.
Barbara: Yeah. And I also just feel like that would give us a little bit more s- because it, that’s right there in the title, so it’s obviously gonna be important to the story.
And so like that would give us a little bit of curiosity about what it is and would propel us to try and understand why she’s reacting the way that she is. Um-
Jennie: Yeah. And just from a technical [00:26:00] standpoint, I’m looking at this entry, it’s almost all dialogue.
Barbara: Mm-hmm.
Jennie: Which I think is hard on a, an opening page.
Uh, don’t you? I think-
Barbara: I, I do. I, I would really have liked to see a little bit more interiority from Emmy here to kind of, I don’t know, understand how she feels, not only about that advertisement, but about, about Seth. Like, did she li- does she like Seth, or is he just like a guy, you know? Um, I just wanted to know a little bit more about how she, who I’m presuming is the protagonist, is experiencing this scene.
Jennie: Yeah. Um, yeah, there was even a moment when I thought, “Is she selling sex?” Mm-hmm. Is, is that... Is she a sex worker? Um, you know- True ... so too many questions about what’s, what’s happening here, which I think could be solved by, um, balancing out the dialogue, um, w- with some other information. [00:27:00] Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, I mean, I’m, um, I’m hoping that this character gets a story that we want, we want to read ‘cause I’m intrigued.
Barbara: Yeah. Same. Same.
Jennie: Yeah. All right. We have one more that we’re going to, um, read. Do you wanna read this one? From your little, “Oh, oh, oh,” opening- ... I was like, “Oh, maybe you’re a good narrator. I’m not.”
Barbara: Sure. Sure. I’ll, I’ll read it. Um, so this one is called Empty Spaces. Um, it’s fiction. I’m not entirely certain who the author is, unless I’m missing that in the spreadsheet.
It looks like perhaps it starts with a T. Um, but here, here is the submission. “April 1st, 1995. ‘Please, please, please,’ Corey sputtered, gripping the black receiver with both hands while the operator relayed her [00:28:00] request. ‘Person-to-person call for Tess. Will you accept the charges?’ ‘No, she’s asleep.’ Corey knew her mother was at the beige phone on the kitchen wall a thousand miles away.
Then her father’s voice in the background. ‘Honey, let the girl talk to her dau-...’ And dial tone. Corey slammed the receiver back into its cradle. ‘What the fuck?’ She missed. Her knuckles scraped the chrome holder, and she unleashed her fury on the edge of the black payphone. ‘Fuck, fuck, fucking fucker.’ The rain that had been collecting in the roo- in the rim of the payphone box was shaken loose by her tantrum and cascaded down inside the collar of her flay- flight jacket.
Well, Charlie’s flight jacket. ‘Skipper,’ came Top’s quiet baritone from behind her. ‘We’re ready to roll.’ ‘Thanks, Top.’ Corey accepted the styrofoam cup of coffee he handed her, then sloshed her way to the lead truck, Arlo trotting at her heels. She hoisted herself up into the passenger side of the rig. Arlo curled up beside her and dug his head into her lap.
Why did her mother have to be such a [00:29:00] little bitch? And on this night. Was it too much to expect her to remember that it was Charlie’s birthday? No, Maria remembered. She was the one who kept a file of birthday cards, organized by month and paper clipped to envelopes, neatly stamped and addressed to the recipient.
But nobody sends a birthday card to a dead person.” After a few minutes, Top started his status report. “Got word from the 24-hour man. The lot they gave us was too small and underwater. He put up a fuss and got us moved to the football field at the high school.” Corey took a sip. “It’ll be nice to have a dry lot.
Daisy’s got that one nail that looks a little soft.” She fiddled with the radio, settling on a country station, what else was there, and yawned. “Where are we headed tonight?” And that is it.
Jennie: Wow, well, author T., uh, Wood, what a treat to have Kathleen Barber read your, read your stuff like that. Gee, you, you sounded amazing.
You sounded like you’d written that. That was so cool. Do you- I, uh- ... narrate your own books?
Barbara: I, I do not, but I have [00:30:00] small children, and I read aloud every night.
Jennie: Do you do the voices?
Barbara: Oh, yes, I definitely do the voices.
Jennie: Do you do all of them, like, in a
Barbara: very- I do all of them.
Jennie: You do?
Barbara: Yeah, yeah. My, my kids were really into the Wings of Fire series, so I’ve read all of those books, and there are many, many dragons, and they all have different voices, and if I do not remember the different voice, my children will be like, “Mommy, that’s not what Peril sounds like,” and then I’ll have to remember and try again,
Jennie: so.
Take notes? Do you have, do you have a guide? Do you just remember? Um,
Barbara: no, I just, I just try and remember.
Jennie: Oh,
Barbara: my. I should take notes, but I’m not that organized. I just go off.
Jennie: That, that’s amazing. That’s amazing. Um, just while we’re talking about it, is there audio already for the new book, for, uh, Sisterhood Above All?
Barbara: There, there is. There is, yeah. Um, I recently got, uh, got a peek at it, and I am very, very excited. We have a different [00:31:00] narrator for each of the POV characters, and they are all fantastic. Super excited.
Jennie: Amazing. All right, so back to this, back to this work. Um, I thought this was great. Uh, did you, did you, how did you feel reading it?
Barbara: I, I, I enjoyed reading it. Um, when, when I was, when I was reading it the first time, I, I found myself getting stopped a few times because I felt like there were a lot of names, and I was confused. Um, you know, it’s, it’s in- I don’t feel like an author needs to spell out for me who every single character is on the first page at all.
Um, it just felt like in a small amount of time, there were a lot of names that I felt like I was trying to keep track of, and that was a bit confusing for me. Slowed me down a little bit.
Jennie: I agree with that. Actually, the first time that I read it And [00:32:00] admittedly, I was scanning these really fast the first time I read it, but there, there’s something to that, how things hit your head.
But I thought that, um, I thought Daisy was a horse because I was like the one nail that looks a little soft, like is who, what- Yeah ... where would that matter that we need to be on grass? And, and, and then I was like, “Wait, who even is Daisy?” So I got stuck on that- Yeah ... for sure. And, um, and then the, um, there’s a nickname that I think the main...
I think Corey, the, the other character calls her Skipper, so I was confused by that. Right. So it, yeah. Yeah. Are those some of the things that you mean?
Barbara: Yeah. The, those was... And I was also just a little confused when I first started reading that it starts out with person to person call for Tess, and then we’re talking about her mother.
And I, I thought at first that her mother was [00:33:00] named Tess, and that, and that the operator was trying to reach her, and that her mother was simply not, simply not wanting to talk even though she was by the phone. But then later on I realized that her mother is actually named Maria, and that Tess must be somebody else.
Um, I think Corey’s daughter, but I didn’t, I didn’t catch that on first reading. I had to read it again to be able to understand that.
Jennie: Yeah. So there, there is a lot going on for sure. When I said that I thought it was great, I- I’m, I’m hoping that this character’s some kind of trucker just because that’s cool, and, um, it, it seemed like we have some tension both in whatever’s happening around...
You know, like, they have a 24-hour man. They’re... Uh, so there’s something afoot. Like, there’s a pr- a project or something afoot that feels like it’s not gonna go well or something’s gonna [00:34:00] happen there. Um, and I also, you know, now we have the thing with the, well, we learn I think it’s the mom. But, um, th- there- Yeah
were enough elements of intrigue, like, what’s, what’s going on here, what’s gonna happen, that I... And I thought it was well-written.
Barbara: Yeah. No, and I, one of the things that I really enjoyed was the way, the, the descriptions of what the, what the scenery looks like with the, with like the weather. So like there’s, there’s the rain, um, there’s another line about how when they’re like getting into the truck that like the lot is underwater, so I’m kind of like envisioning...
I actually don’t know what time of day it is, but for some reason I’m envisioning it being a little bit darker, but that might just be because of, of the rain that’s happening. Maybe that’s what’s making me think that it’s, it’s a little bit darker outside, but I’m like envisioning the, the rain, and they’re getting into the rig.
But I, I didn’t get that she was a truck driver. I, I, I think maybe... But I, but I, [00:35:00] I don’t know. I don’t know. I thought that maybe she was some sort of- Some sort of, like, news person. But I don’t... ‘Cause I don’t actually, I don’t actually know what a 24-hour man is, so I think that might have... Okay. Yeah. No, I don’t know.
I was just like... So I, so I didn’t know. Um, but I was, I was curious to know... Yeah. I was gonna say, I was curious to know why she was making this call to her mother at this moment, and why she was so desperate for her mother to answer the phone at this moment. Um, so yeah, th- those were, those are questions that I had.
Jennie: Usually, back in the day, which this was, um, will you accept the charges was something you did when you had no money.
Barbara: Mm-hmm.
Jennie: You know, you would call home or wherever and, ‘cause you didn’t have money to make a call, so the operator would place the call and ask the [00:36:00] person to accept the charges. Mm-hmm. And normally you would do that with somebody who knows you have, you’re having a problem, or, you know.
So, like, this is a very particular moment that led me to believe that she didn’t, she didn’t even have money for a call. So- Mm-hmm ... I don’t know why I placed her as a trucker. Like, she climbed into the- Oh, okay ... the rig. She s- she sloshed her way to the lead truck. She’s fiddling with the radio station. Like, what, where we headed?
Yeah. Like, we’re just on a job. I totally made her a trucker
Barbara: and I- Yeah. No, no, no. I, well, I think maybe the reason I thought maybe she wasn’t was because there were all these other... Because, like, Top is there, and the, it’s, it’s a lead truck, and she’s, she’s getting into the passenger side. And there’s also a, a, a dog, I assume.
I assume Arlo’s a dog. I suppose it could be some other sort of animal that’s, that’s with her, but I, I assume Arlo’s a dog. Um- Well,
Jennie: so this is actually a really great [00:37:00] conversation for anybody listening, and particularly for this author. You can see that if you confuse your reader They’re gonna spend their time with these kinds of questions.
Like, is the mother Tess or is it Corey? Is this woman a trucker or not? Is... You know, and those are not the kind of questions you want to be leaving your reader with. Those are-
Barbara: Yeah ...
Jennie: um, I don’t know w- how we would describe them, almost logistics. They’re,
Barbara: they’re more like de- yeah, yeah, exactly. ‘Cause I mean, they’re, I, I, I enjoy getting a good question at the start of reading something, you know?
Like, you know, I mean, for example, it’s, it’s really interesting that Corey made what seems to be a collect call, and they didn’t just not answer it. They answered it, and then hung up on her, which feels, like, very purposeful. And so, like, I’m very, I’m very curious about that relationship. I’m curious about the fact that, that Charlie is, is dead, um, and [00:38:00] who Charlie is to the, to the narrator.
These are things that, like, have piqued my curiosity, and I would like to learn more about, um, would inspire me to read more, to learn more about those things. Uh, but then those other things that we were talking about, like, well, like, who is this? W- what kind of animal is Daisy? Like, what are, where are they actually going?
Like, what, what is, what is the goal here? What, what is the deal about the, the lot and the, and the football field? The, w- what are we gonna do here? Those are questions that, that slowed me down, and made me less likely to want to keep reading.
Jennie: Yeah. I loved that line, “But nobody sends a birthday card to a dead person.”
Barbara: Yeah.
Jennie: And I, I’m thinking- Really poignant ... that that’s the center of this story, you know, s- who, who was Charlie? I think you said that. Mm-hmm. Was-
Barbara: Mm-hmm.
Jennie: And ‘cause she’s got the jacket.
Barbara: Yeah.
Jennie: She’s got Charlie’s jacket, so- That, that’s
Barbara: true, and sh- and she’s wearing it, I think. [00:39:00]
Jennie: Yeah, and, and so- I mean, I suppose Charlie could be a child if this person is older.
Barbara: Yeah.
Jennie: Like, you know, um, but y- I ... So I had this weird reaction to this, which is I thought it was fun, and maybe that was you reading it. I thought, I thought the writing was great, but I wouldn’t turn the page. I’d be frustrated. You know, if, if there was another book or another story that was, um, didn’t make me work so hard- Mm
to figure out where I was or what was happening, I would choose that over this. So it’s a weird combination for me of great job, but it’s a no for me.
Barbara: Yeah,
Jennie: that- What about you?
Barbara: That’s, that’s how I felt. There, there were a lot of elements here that I think are, that are intriguing and that if presented slightly differently would make me want to turn the page.
But as, as it is right now, I, I would not. [00:40:00]
Jennie: I agree with that. I think it feels close. Mm-hmm. Um, so how could we give this person some direction for, um- Yeah ... well, you talked about all the names, and I don’t think the solution is ID all these names.
Barbara: Right.
Jennie: Mm-hmm. That’s gonna be clunky. Or ID all these people. Um-
Barbara: Yeah.
I, I think for, for me personally, what I think would help was if we were to get a bit more of a peek inside the nar- inside Corey’s head, so we could understand from her perspective why it’s important that she’s making this call, like, what the goal is with the truck. Um, if we just saw it a little bit more from her view and got to know a little bit more of the information that she already holds in her head, I think that would go a long way to making the story feel more accessible to the reader.
Jennie: That’s really well said, and [00:41:00] hopefully that helps the writer for your next pass to, to think about. But I- there’s something, there’s something good I think here going on. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I have the same, um, comment that I had earlier. I, I wanna know what kind of story I’m in, and I’m s- and I’m not sure. We were talking about sorting out these relationships and what’s happening with the field and the truck and then the weather and all that, but again, is this
There’s no sense of what kind of story this is going to be. And, um, I, I always want a little more. And, and the title is Empty Spaces, which doesn’t help, um- Yeah ... point us to that. I hear that. So just a little more, um, of a sense of what world are we? What, what problem do we have? What world are we in? Um, you know, and even just that last bit where the character turns the radio station on and yawns, “Where are we headed [00:42:00] tonight?”
It- there’s, there’s not an urgency of It’s, s- nobody’s running from anything. There’s no- Right ... threat, uh,
except for the mom who won’t answer the call.
Barbara: Yeah, yeah.
Jennie: Yeah. Um, so a little, a little more of a sense of what’s at stake. Um, I know, we always are asking so much on a first page, but- I know ...
Barbara: uh. I know, but e- you know, it’s, there are so many things to read, you know, from, like agents, editors, readers, all have so many things to choose from, and so it’s just so important to nail that first page, you know?
Jennie: How many times do you rewrite your first pages?
Barbara: Oh my gosh, so many times. So many times. Yeah. Yeah, well, um, ‘cause usually I write the first page, and then I write the rest of the book, and then I’m like, “Oh, like, the rest of the book does something different. I need to go back and, like, make this first page...”
Also, I do, I often do the thing that I think a lot of writers do, which is, [00:43:00] once you’ve written a little bit further, you realize that, like, you’ve started at the wrong spot. Um, I mean, the, one of, one of the things that helps me when I, when I think to do it is to use one of the exercises that’s in, that’s in your work, where you, where you start what, you, you write the beginning and the ending before you even start anything.
Um, and I, I, when I remember to do that the right way, that really, definitely helps me. Um, but I don’t always remember to do that, and so I have, like, partway in, and then I’m like, “Wait, no, the first page.” So,
Jennie: it’s- Well, that, yeah, that’s a, um, a step in the blueprint for a book book. Um, it’s a good one, for sure.
Uh, well, thank you so much for joining me for, for this, Kathleen, and congratulations on the new book. Um, for everyone listening, go check out, you can find everything at KathleenBarber.com. And, um, you can find Sisterhood Above All, which is brand new and just out and sounds like so much [00:44:00] fun. I, it’s on my TBR, TBR.
Yay. I just can’t read, I just can’t read thrillers at night. I get too scared. So,
Barbara: um-
Jennie: That’s
Barbara: fair. That’s fair ...
Jennie: I, I have to wait till I’m, like, on a plane or, um, you know, somewhere where I’m reading during the day. Yeah. Is this one, is this one l- scary scary?
Barbara: I mean, it’s, it’s not, like, scary scary. It’s, it’s not, like, uh- It’s, it’s not like there’s someone who’s out there to kill you for reasons that you cannot control.
You know what I mean? Like, it’s like- Yeah, yeah ... it would be scary to the people inside the book, but it should not be scary to you. But
Jennie: I understand how- Well, we don’t need to reas- We don’t need to reassure me because people love these, love these- Yeah ... and, uh, what a fun, fun setting and setup for- Thank you
a thriller. It’s, it’s exciting. Thanks. So can’t wait to see how, how the world receives it. And- Mm ... um, I always hate to say this to somebody whose book just came out, but can’t wait to see what you do next. [00:45:00]
Barbara: Don’t worry, I’m already writing
Jennie: stuff. Oh, yeah. Do you, ooh, do you wanna, do you wanna tell or no?
Barbara: I, I do not, just ‘cause I get really superstitious about it, but, um, but I have something that I’m working on that I’m excited about, so you know, we’ll see how it goes.
Jennie: I love it. Well, thank you for joining us for Book Life, Jennifer.
Barbara: Thanks for having me. That was a lot of fun.
Jennie: For our listeners, let’s get back to work and finish what matters most.
Outro: The hashtag amwriting podcast is produced by Andrew Perilla. Our intro music, aptly titled Unemployed Monday, was written and played by Max Cohen. Andrew and Max were paid for their time and their creative output because everyone deserves to be paid for their [00:46:00] work
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